Witness Limited - Did I get a lemon?

[d1esel]

I just bought a Witness Limited in 9mm. And I have a few questions about the gun. I don't compete. This is just a range gun for me. The fit is looser then I had hoped for. Barrel to slide lock has about .004 play at the muzel and about .006 to .008 horizontal play at the breech. The slide to frame fit has about .005 play horizontal and .007 vertically. Is this typical for this gun, or did I get a lemon? What kind of accuracy can I expect form this gun? Would it be worth having a gunsmith take the slop out? Or should I just move on to a better gun? The type of shooting I do is close range bullseye.

Edited December 18, 2009 by d1esel

[CHA-LEE]

Have you shot the gun to validate its accuracy, or lack there of? I know that my Limited .40 has super sloppy frame to slide fit and it is still far more accurate than I am capible of shooting it free hand.

These guns tend to have a reputation for being very accurate pistols.

[liontribe]

yeah, i would run it a while and see how it behaves. if you want a tighter lockup, henning has a slide lock pin that is toleranced to fit tighter than factory. might be a nice fix for ya. both my Limited pistols were tight as a drum so i haven't tried one personally.

liontribe

[d1esel]

I have put about 800 rounds thru it. It does OK but I'm not impressed. I get some POI shift. Witch seems constant with the poor barrel to slide lock. And that seems to open up my groups. At my last range session, form 40' I shot a 4” 18 round group from the bench with an unsupported wrist. I think without the POI shift it would have been closer to 2”.

[liontribe]

well, it might be worth your while to try the oversized slide pin offered on henning's site. he is first rate. i myself am placing an order for his conehead guide rod and some other goodies in the next few days.

liontribe

[photog]

My Limited has more "slop" in the fit than I would have expected, even as new. But it seems to have a lot less with a round in the chamber. It groups quite well, but I have never bothered to shoot it off a bench or rest. When I shoot groups, it makes 20 holes in a small circle at 10 yards off hand. It hasn't changed over the last year and 6k rounds. I guess I really should start seeing exactly what kind of groups it will shoot, but I get so bored with that kind of practice. I know what it will hit if i do my part, but I would get creamed in a bulls-eye type comp. It will hit a 20x15 steel plate at 90 yards, over and over again, once I get the trajectory and hold over (have to walk the rounds in). Pretty vague assessment, isn't that!! Mine is loose, but does what I want it to, so I'm not upset.

[photog]

And yes, Henning is the guy for parts and accessories. Call his business and ask him what to do to tighten it up.

[cas]

what are you feeding it?

[d1esel]

what are you feeding it?

115g Winchester white box and 115g UMC. The gun prefers the longer OAL of the white box. The gun came with a magazine without the spacer. I have had about 6 nose dives in 800 rounds. I have found when loading the magazine if a cartridge does not seat against the lips properly I get a nose dive. I can correct this by pushing down on the cartridge with my thumb 2 or 3 times until it seats.

[sinnsyk]

Though conventionally tight fit in barrel, slide and frame is considered why a gun is accurate... what causes a bullet to hit in the same spot round after round is when the barrel consistently return to the same position [barrel in slide & frame position] shot after shot. Though a gun may be horribly sloppy, if the barrel returns to the same ready-to-fire position it doesn't matter for creating a small group on paper. The bullet choice is the other biggest ingredient for group shooting consistency.

In 2003 I had a Gold Team 38 super with a horrible slide to frame fit. I shot several different bullets. At 50 yards the bottom shelf bullets barely could hit the C-zone. Then I tried the Hornady 121 HAP bullet and put several 1.5" groups on paper. So make sure to test multiple bullets before the gun is found to be the reason.

Irritated by the frame to slide slop I had a gunsmith tighten up my gun. It came out great, but of course had no improvement on the groups I was shooting.

So.. don't dismiss what the guns can shoot on account of what you think before everything is tried and tested. They are production guns, perform well out of the box, but tweaking is what we all do here. A gunsmith can modify frame/slide/barrel fit if you want. Even help tweak your magazines to avoid nose-dives. The 9mm magazine bodies has inherent issues. You want to narrow the front feed lips to about 0.335" and use round nose bullets to start. Further work can be done on follower, spring and magbodies to reduce nose dive issues. Personally I'm holding my breath for a newer style magazine body that we've been waiting for.

For work on your gun etc give Canyon Creek Custom a call; www.canyoncreekcustom.com. Rich is a great guy who does all barrel fitting, slide lightening and custom work on my pistols. Most of the parts I sell can be installed by yourself, but machining and modifying gun parts, barrel, slide and frame are jobs for the gunsmith.

Good luck

henning

Edited December 25, 2009 by sinnsyk

[photog]

what are you feeding it?

180 grain Montana Gold FMJ, Winchester small primer, 4.8 grains of american select in a R-P nickle case.

soft shooting, and looks great!