.45 ACP

[Corey]

I have been doing some research and found quite a bit of info as well as reviews on Black Bullets International. I am looking to try some of these and develop some loads for competition next year. For reference, I am only reloading for .45 ACP at the moment and will be shooting a 5" Colt for Single Stack next year.

Now to my question at hand. I have a number of different powders (6 to be exact) that I am going to be experimenting with over the next few months -- as best I can with the weather here in IN that is -- to develop loads. I have the following on hand:

Bullseye

Unique

Clays

Titegroup

WST

W231

I may also pick up some Vihtavuori now that I have a good link to them but Im not sure what "flavors" if you will would be best. Input here would be great.

I know the website has a few of these listed on their recommended/not recommended list but I wanted to hear suggestions from those who are using these what they are using and what I should shy away from. As a side note, I am also going to be reloading some Rainier 230gr round nose for random range plinking/cheaper practice rounds in my other .45's. A powder that would be good for both uses would be IDEAL as it would simplify future bulk orders, but I'm willing to run a few diff powders if it makes sense quality-wise.

Thanks for your input and help!!!

[Matt Cheely]

Titegroup = smoke.

WST might not be bad. I'd try that first.

[SA Friday]

230gr BBI

4.2gr Solo 1000

1.255 OAL

Wolf/Fed/Win LPP

mixed brass

230gr BBI

3.8gr Clays

1.255 OAL

Wolf/Fed/Win LPP

mixed brass

Clays is a tad more smoke. I shoot the Solo 1000 rounds, and so to many else in their 45's. BTW, I also shoot a Colt 5" and these loads are in the 170-171 pf area.

[dr2e]

WST might not be bad. I'd try that first.

i like to load 4.15 of wst behind a 230 bear creek, i know not the same but close, with a 1.260 oal. works well and is accurate in my d. wesson.

Edited December 16, 2009 by dr2e

[Corey]

For some reason, I had a feeling you'd be posting in here Matt

Keep'em comin, id especially like to know inputs/loads for the VV powders if possible.

[Harmon]

wst or clays.

3.8 with clays

4.1 with WST

with 230 grain lead or coated

1.250 oal.

[smokshwn]

I have had pretty good results with Ramshot Competition in .40 with respect to smoke production. Don't know how it would run in .45.

[Matt Cheely]

For some reason, I had a feeling you'd be posting in here Matt

Keep'em comin, id especially like to know inputs/loads for the VV powders if possible.

N320 is smoky. Anything that burns hot and fast is going to melt the coating resulting in more smoke.

I wouldn't use VV powders, I'd save that big $$$ powder for the good jacketed bullets.

[Al Capizzo]

The only Viht / 230 grain load I've personally tried was Viht N-320 4.6 grains with a 230 grain Nosler flat point and Winchester Large Pistol primers. This chrono'd exactly 165 from my gun. That said, I'm a big fan of Clays with a 230 Precision bullets.

[A63111]

I've loaded VV320 @ 4.4gr. with 230 gr Precisions @1.20 OAL for a 168 PF out of a 5" Kart barrel.

Also at this time of year in IN. remember that WST is reverse temp. sensitive, Loads that just make PF now won't in warmer weather.

Edited December 16, 2009 by A63111

[AriM]

been very happy with American Select....virtually NO smoke....and it's cheap to shoot....my current favorite powder...also very safe...I think it's #12 on the burnrate chart...I use it with Precision Moly coated 200swc and it's not too bad....was much better with bear creek 230 RN....5gn. makes a good practice round and 5.7 will make 180pf (with a 200gn. projectile)....6 is listed as max....so it's nice to make 180pf and be under max...

$96 for 8 pounds

Edited December 16, 2009 by AriM

[LPatterson]

American Select can look like a fireworks show late in the evening from flakes burning outside the barrel with lighter bullet weights. Clays gets wimpy in cold weather.

[AriM]

American Select can look like a fireworks show late in the evening from flakes burning outside the barrel with lighter bullet weights. Clays gets wimpy in cold weather.

Precision Bullets, recommends American Select with their 200 grain SWC....I have found it to be excellent and clean burning....#12 on the burn rate chart...please explain to me some more about the fireworks....do you feel AS is too fast a burn? I would tend to agree that 231 is a "better" powder.....but it's significantly more expensive....do you feel American Select is inappropriate for a 200gn. SWC...5 gn. is an average-high velocity of 800-820 fps.

[MoNsTeR]

For some reason, I had a feeling you'd be posting in here Matt

Keep'em comin, id especially like to know inputs/loads for the VV powders if possible.

N320 is smoky. Anything that burns hot and fast is going to melt the coating resulting in more smoke.

I wouldn't use VV powders, I'd save that big $$$ powder for the good jacketed bullets.

1. N320 burns cool, as does the whole N3xx series, because they are single-base. Titegroup burns hot because it is not only double-base but has a such a high proportion of nitroglycerin.

2. The cost difference between VV and lesser powders doesn't even get you half the way from moly to jacketed

I haven't loaded .45 in a few years and don't have data handy, but I wouldn't even try anything other than N310. If you can't get it or don't want to for whatever reason, try Clays or Solo 1000.

[BMartens]

I use Clays across the board in .45, cheap and accurate.

3.7 Clays for 230 gr

4.3 Clays for 200 gr

WSP

1.242 OAL

168 to 172 PF for either bullet depending on weather and chrono.

Clays doesn't smoke bad with moly at all, nothing like with lead.

[gm iprod]

Matt is mostly right. Anything that burns real hot will beat on the bullet, especially the N320.

However, I have used a similar bullet (was blue coated now gold coloured) and using either WST or Titegroup seemed to smoke the least, with Clays close behind, and did not seem to aggressively burn the coating off. You will never stop the smoke, if you load real soft the powder will not burn properly, if you run a little too hot the coating is toasted. So you have to find that middle ground. N320 backed off to just over Major with a 200gr bullet was OK, but when you reduced the charge to suit the 230gr the smoke became an issue. If you cracked it along the coating was burned off then you got a little leading and a little more smoke. Almost the same issue with TG.

Tried powders around the WSF burnrate and if you ran bang on major there was unburned powder and some smoke. If you got rid of the powder smoke the load was well up in power. and accuracy fell off.

Have not tried Ramshot and or IMR myself, so if someone has input on that then I defer to them.

All around best with 230gr was Clays and then if you just made Major. This was in MY gun (Kimber Limited Target) tested here. I finally capitulated and ran 185gr Zero with TG, no smoke real good accuracy. N320 worked just as well but at more money, but with somewhat less powder residue on the internals than what TG left behind.

[LPatterson]

American Select can look like a fireworks show late in the evening from flakes burning outside the barrel with lighter bullet weights. Clays gets wimpy in cold weather.

Precision Bullets, recommends American Select with their 200 grain SWC....I have found it to be excellent and clean burning....#12 on the burn rate chart...please explain to me some more about the fireworks....do you feel AS is too fast a burn? I would tend to agree that 231 is a "better" powder.....but it's significantly more expensive....do you feel American Select is inappropriate for a 200gn. SWC...5 gn. is an average-high velocity of 800-820 fps.

I happened to be shooting some leftover loads laying around the house and had American Select with 200gr Precision Moly, WST & Solo 1000 with 230gr Precision Delta & Clays with 230gr Montana Gold. Until I got the the revo I used to practice with 200gr bullets and use 230's in competition but that was a major feel difference with the revo. And they didn't reload the same, round things didn't fit in the butt well (PUN). The molys were shot last because it usually takes 2 or 3 moons for the grouping to return on target. What I could see were random sparks with the American Select that were not there with the other powders. I bought the American Select and WST from the same guy out of the back of his truck and they were only $10 cheaper on average than Clays & 231 from Scheels. 800-820 fps is going to have you shooting minor with a 200gr bullet, ask me how I know. Easier to use a 230gr bullet at 730-740.

[AriM]

American Select can look like a fireworks show late in the evening from flakes burning outside the barrel with lighter bullet weights. Clays gets wimpy in cold weather.

Precision Bullets, recommends American Select with their 200 grain SWC....I have found it to be excellent and clean burning....#12 on the burn rate chart...please explain to me some more about the fireworks....do you feel AS is too fast a burn? I would tend to agree that 231 is a "better" powder.....but it's significantly more expensive....do you feel American Select is inappropriate for a 200gn. SWC...5 gn. is an average-high velocity of 800-820 fps.

I happened to be shooting some leftover loads laying around the house and had American Select with 200gr Precision Moly, WST & Solo 1000 with 230gr Precision Delta & Clays with 230gr Montana Gold. Until I got the the revo I used to practice with 200gr bullets and use 230's in competition but that was a major feel difference with the revo. And they didn't reload the same, round things didn't fit in the butt well (PUN). The molys were shot last because it usually takes 2 or 3 moons for the grouping to return on target. What I could see were random sparks with the American Select that were not there with the other powders. I bought the American Select and WST from the same guy out of the back of his truck and they were only $10 cheaper on average than Clays & 231 from Scheels. 800-820 fps is going to have you shooting minor with a 200gr bullet, ask me how I know. Easier to use a 230gr bullet at 730-740.

\Interesting LeRoy,

I am going to try that same thing....I am going to try and videotape and see what happens....if sparks are flying out of the barrel, and it's not completely burning, then maybe it's a bit too fast of a powder....

Price difference for 231 vs. American Select (for me) is $149 vs. $96....from places that have both in stock....

I know that 5gn. is NOT major....I would need 5.7gn to make major with a 200gn. SWC, but 5gn. is my practice load...it's cheap and seems to perform VERY well in my gun and under my conditions....if you can find me 8 pounds of 231 for under $100 in stock....I will happily order some, as I think it's a better metering powder than American Select......5.7gn. is roughly 180pf btw.....900 fps 200 swc....and there is still room for more before you hit max....you probably know that already, since you have used American Select

[LPatterson]

Ari,

I have discovered I don't shoot well if I practice with an underpowered load and shoot a full power load in the match. There is something about the increased recoil that has bullets landing where I wasn't aiming, Burkett calls it timing. He discusses it in context of grip pressure, while I think my problem is trying to shoot to a candence (doubletap) without making sure where the sights are. Most of the time I am using a moly practice load on top of Solo 1000, 4.4 gives the same PF as 4.6 with a jacketed bullet. Performance wise I had no problem with American Select other than some smoke with some moly bullets. I am forever trying different powders that people write about, I have an almost full can of Winchester Action Pistol, all the Ramshot pistol powders and several Hodgdon, Alliant, Accurate and Winchester WST, WSF & 231.

[AriM]

Ari,

I have discovered I don't shoot well if I practice with an underpowered load and shoot a full power load in the match. There is something about the increased recoil that has bullets landing where I wasn't aiming, Burkett calls it timing. He discusses it in context of grip pressure, while I think my problem is trying to shoot to a candence (doubletap) without making sure where the sights are. Most of the time I am using a moly practice load on top of Solo 1000, 4.4 gives the same PF as 4.6 with a jacketed bullet. Performance wise I had no problem with American Select other than some smoke with some moly bullets. I am forever trying different powders that people write about, I have an almost full can of Winchester Action Pistol, all the Ramshot pistol powders and several Hodgdon, Alliant, Accurate and Winchester WST, WSF & 231.

LeRoy,

I have often debated the same subject with myself. Should I practice with MAX load so that I am more comfortable with the recoil....well I have investigated by shooting with MAX for a while....and I honestly couldn't feel much difference...the .7gn in AS just didn't seem to make the gun jump enough more to make me want to go that direction. There is another consideration, I am not shooting competition YET....just practice...so I am not sure the extra cost in powder and wear on the firearm can really justify shooting a MAJOR load all the time. with my current load I am about 80fps under major....I know it's noticeable, but I still haven't worked out the details for my training.

Maybe I am just being cheap and pennywise, but pound foolish.....the added cost of shooting 231 at Major PF would honestly only be a few cents more per round....I think my biggest concern though is wear on the firearm.......not to sure about all of this...I really like the American Select, because of performance and cost....but you bring up some really interesting food for though....

I still like AA #7 the best....that is one excellent powder....but it's so expensive....maybe someday when I have the money, I will shoot only JHP through an open gun with AA #7 out of brand new unfired brass....until then I have to figure out how to save a penny here and there, just to be able to keep shooting...

Ari

P.S. can you think of any other options in the $100/8 pounds range that would be a good alternative to AS? I want to keep the load cost under 1 cent....thanks for your advice

Edited December 19, 2009 by AriM

[calishootr]

I have been shooting WST and its grandfathers for yrs now, back in the day, we started w/ 452AA, found it to be pretty good, tho temp sensitive, the main thing was and still is with WST is that it is the softest felt recoiling powder for .40/.45 and because it burns 'cool' works great w/ moly bullets from all makers and the best partfor me(beforethe whole component price spike) was that VV was running 22 to 27 dollars per lb, and i was getting WST for 10 bucks a lb!!!!! yep thems was the days, a 8 lb kegger was 80 bucks....

[2MoreChains]

Hi Corey,

I've used four of the powders you listed for shooting single stack in .45acp using a 200 gr moly-coated SWC bullet from Bear Creek. All the loads below made major in the 168-172 ish range, depending on temp.

Bullseye: 4.7 gr

231: 5.8 gr

WST: 4.8 gr

Clays: 4.3 gr

Prior to switching to a moly-coated bullet I also used the same powders under lead SWC. For the most part the load was the same, but found that I had to bump the charge by 0.1 grs to safely make major. Got a chronograph? YMMV

I settled on Clays since it was the least smoky of all the loads, and relatively cheap and available in my area. One note about the Clays: the 4.3 gr load is right at the recommended maximum range that Hodgdon lists. Not that big of a deal, but something to be aware of.

Cheers

[Corey]

Hi Corey,

I've used four of the powders you listed for shooting single stack in .45acp using a 200 gr moly-coated SWC bullet from Bear Creek. All the loads below made major in the 168-172 ish range, depending on temp.

Bullseye: 4.7 gr

231: 5.8 gr

WST: 4.8 gr

Clays: 4.3 gr

Prior to switching to a moly-coated bullet I also used the same powders under lead SWC. For the most part the load was the same, but found that I had to bump the charge by 0.1 grs to safely make major. Got a chronograph? YMMV

I settled on Clays since it was the least smoky of all the loads, and relatively cheap and available in my area. One note about the Clays: the 4.3 gr load is right at the recommended maximum range that Hodgdon lists. Not that big of a deal, but something to be aware of.

Cheers

perfect info for my needs, thank you. i do NOT have a chrono yet, but will be buying one after the holidays i think, probably a CED M2. the only indoor range in my area wont allow reloads to be shot, so im gonna need a nice weather day (like we get those here in IN in the winter, lol)

[2MoreChains]

No problem, glad it helped.

After trying out moly-coated bullets, I've pretty much switched over to them exclusively for all my 1911's. They did everything I was hoping they would do, but at a much lower cost than FMJ's or even plated bullets (i.e. accurate, don't smoke very much, and load easily). I use them for practice as well as matches, and it's nice to have that consistency.

BBI make some really good bullets, and from what I hear they support our sport pretty well. On the other hand, Bear Creek also offers a really good bullet at a lower cost. Last time I ordered it was $38.50/500, with free S/H on orders over $95. Unfortunately (or fortunately since they don't get back-ordered very often) they don't do internet sales and you have to call to place orders.

PM me with your email, and I'll email you their price list.

I don't have one, but from what I hear from others who have one, the CED M2 is a pretty good chrono. Good choice, and a good investment!

I don't have a huge amount of chrono data with WST, but discovered from testing it over the course of a year it is inversely sensitive to temp (shoots faster in cooler temps). From what I've read on this forum, it sounds like others have had the same experience. Clays on the other hand is somewhat normally temp sensitive (slower in cooler temps). I haven't traveled too much out of my area to see what effect elevation has on the powders, but something to keep in mind if you go out of town for a major match...

[A62335]

You owe it to yourself to get at least 1lb of N310. Trust me.