2010 Ozark 3 Gun Championships and 3 Gun Nation affiliation

[abn-rgr]

Mike, you contradict yourself in your statement, one sighting system only, irons OR a 1x optic, does not allow irons co-witnessed thru the optic, that would be 2 sighting systems.

Since I do not know exactly how you"ve been running the match at OKC, I can't speak for your interpretation. However I recall your statement being correct about ONE sighting system, ONLY. The real problem here is how does USPSA address it, since they are the ones that most everyone will base the class off of????????

trapr

I am definitely not trying to follow USPSA. We are going to leave it at one sighting device. The reason we decided to do this is because if guys like you, Kurt, and Mike P think its a good idea, Im good with it. Not trying to be a suck up, but it definitely will keep the division alive.

[AFH]

Trapr,

While I applaud USPSA for stepping up and making this change, I do not see Ozark or any of the other matches blindly following what USPSA does with its rules on red dot sights.

In an email from someone familiar with the OKC way of handling this situation, I was told that they "have always run it as a "single sight system", no off-set 30-45 degree mounts or anything like that. [They] do allow BUIS co-witnessed but [the BUIS] MUST remain folded, if they are popped up with out R.M. approval ( i.e. red dot is broken, and must be notified before stage shooting, no ..OH darn my sight went out -- flip!) you are now in tac optic, and if the scope goes out it must be removed, in order to continue with BUIS."

Andy

[abn-rgr]

Due to popular opinion, we are revising the rules to allow non magnified electronic devices in Tac Iron. They must be a true 1x (EOtech, aimpoint, etc). If anyone has any questions, let me know. If you have already signed up in TO and want to change your division because of the rule change, IM and let me know.

Is this rule change going to apply to heavy metal division as well? Those poor guys don't want to line up sights either, except for PK, one of my hero's I assume that means Cmores and other brands as well not just eotech and aimpoint Oh, yeah are we talking just the rifle part or can we put these on pistols now too, well heck lets just do away with all iron sights, I'm having trouble focusing on my front sight on my pistol and my rifle sight is much farther away whatever LOL, I remember when we only had one division in USPSA

Heavy Metal will not be allowed electronic devices. This is definitely a division Ive been told wants to remain pure.

I Thank you!!! And I think Eddie would thank you!!! (even thou he preferred scopes in the past couple of years...)

jj

No problem JJ. Im sure most HM guys shoot that division because of the limitations placed on it. We dont want to make it easier on the hardcores!!!

[Jesse Tischauser]

Trapr,

While I applaud USPSA for stepping up and making this change, I do not see Ozark or any of the other matches blindly following what USPSA does with its rules on red dot sights.

In an email from someone familiar with the OKC way of handling this situation, I was told that they "have always run it as a "single sight system", no off-set 30-45 degree mounts or anything like that. [They] do allow BUIS co-witnessed but [the BUIS] MUST remain folded, if they are popped up with out R.M. approval ( i.e. red dot is broken, and must be notified before stage shooting, no ..OH darn my sight went out -- flip!) you are now in tac optic, and if the scope goes out it must be removed, in order to continue with BUIS."

Andy

That makes sense to me.

[mike_pinto]

Mike, you contradict yourself in your statement, one sighting system only, irons OR a 1x optic, does not allow irons co-witnessed thru the optic, that would be 2 sighting systems.

trapr

Funny, everyone else understood.

[bigbrowndog]

Andy, and Kirk, I was not trying to say do it one way or the other at all, simply that once its entrenched or accepted in a particular fashion. I can see it becoming a point of contention with competitors if it is deviated from at a lot of matches, much the same way HM equipment has been skewed and twisted with the various matches.

And since the association seems to be willing to try it out, it would be nice if the definition for equipment is standardized as much as possible. I mean how many times do we hear about people complaining that they have to READ rules for every match they go to.

Trapr

[Jesse Tischauser]

Andy, and Kirk, I was not trying to say do it one way or the other at all, simply that once its entrenched or accepted in a particular fashion. I can see it becoming a point of contention with competitors if it is deviated from at a lot of matches, much the same way HM equipment has been skewed and twisted with the various matches.

And since the association seems to be willing to try it out, it would be nice if the definition for equipment is standardized as much as possible. I mean how many times do we hear about people complaining that they have to READ rules for every match they go to.

Trapr

I hate reading rules almost as much as I hate reading about iron sight shooters fighting over how to run their divisions.

[bigbrowndog]

and yet you read one and not the other??????????

trapr

[abn-rgr]

Andy, and Kirk, I was not trying to say do it one way or the other at all, simply that once its entrenched or accepted in a particular fashion. I can see it becoming a point of contention with competitors if it is deviated from at a lot of matches, much the same way HM equipment has been skewed and twisted with the various matches.

And since the association seems to be willing to try it out, it would be nice if the definition for equipment is standardized as much as possible. I mean how many times do we hear about people complaining that they have to READ rules for every match they go to.

Trapr

You obviously have me confused with Big bear (Kirk). Thats OK , but hes not nearly as handsome as I am!!! I agree with you on the rules. I like that "most" outlaw matches are pretty close on their rules., but all have their own flavor and theme.

[Jesse Tischauser]

and yet you read one and not the other??????????

trapr

LOL!

I think I gotta get me an iron sight gun again just so I can see what all the talk is about. Maybe Ill try HM.

[bigbrowndog]

I walked out to my truck and it hit me that I referred to you as Kirk, then I see where you correct me, my only defense is that its really hot here, and I'm trying to stay in the AC.

trapr

[Brian Payne]

"Both were mentioned and considered before approving the rule change. Both are now okay in Limited. If you want to mount your EoTech with multiple aiming dots on the side of your gun and use your fancy target irons on the top go for it. There just isn't that much of an advantage there. We didn't want to restrict the folks who have co-witnessed iron sights, or flip up back up sights unnecessarily".

A quote Chuck Anderson from another thread about the new USPSA rules for limited. I presonally like this idea, but I do see it as a "limited/Open" hybred of sorts.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Brian Payne

[abn-rgr]

For now we are going to stick with one sighting system.

[Bryan 45]

For now we are going to stick with one sighting system.

As an iron sight shooter, I think that's a good call.

[Chuck Anderson]

The reason USPSA went the way it did, and not that the Ozark or any other non-USPSA match, has to follow us is simple. We wanted to include as many of the new Modern Sporting Rifle owners as possible. The way we did it was a lot simpler and cleaner than trying to define what a single sighting system is. I have seen and sold an awful lot of rifles that have a standard A-Frame front sight but no rear. Is that a sighting system? It's a red-dot and an Iron sight. Besides that we wanted to include all these guys that went out and bought Gee-whiz gear for their guns. Like the Daniel Defense BUIS sight. Not a flip up, just a static rear sight. Or Rock River Arms. They sell most of their guns with a Dominator mount for the EOTech. It incorporates a rear sight into the mount. You can't get away from having the second set of sights there. If I had my new MSR, I'm not going to be stripping parts off for a match. To me the single biggest reason to include red dots in Limited was to create a more inclusive Division/sport.

[-=VILLAMOR=-]

I Thank you!!! And I think Eddie would thank you!!! (even thou he preferred scopes in the past couple of years...)

jj

Second that.

[RufDog]

Chuck,

We aren't splitting atoms here.

[Big Bear]

I walked out to my truck and it hit me that I referred to you as Kirk, then I see where you correct me, my only defense is that its really hot here, and I'm trying to stay in the AC.

trapr

It's ok Trapr, I know you have me on your mind a lot. Chads just mad cause it ain't him.

Kirk

[RufDog]

@Kirk & Trapr- nice

[Big Bear]

This is great discussion guys and I appreciate all the input. The new rules will be posted tomorrow evening on the website provided the electric company doesn't shut me off or the New Madrid fault doesn't give.

Thanks again, this is what makes this sport so great.

Kirk Broyles

Match Director

O3GC

[AlamoShooter]

So, now that I have a limp ...What age is senior for this match?

[bigbrowndog]

suck it up alamolimper!!!

Ok so big bear is Kirk.

KurtM is gort

the abdominal rigger is Chad

bigbrowndog is Scout's dad

who the heck is brain45??????? :devil:

trapr

[1chota]

I walked out to my truck and it hit me that I referred to you as Kirk, then I see where you correct me, my only defense is that its really hot here, and I'm trying to stay in the AC.

trapr

plus you are getting older! sucks! don't it?

[bigbrowndog]

well sometimes it beats the alternative

trapr

[Bryan 45]

suck it up alamolimper!!!

Ok so big bear is Kirk.

KurtM is gort

the abdominal rigger is Chad

bigbrowndog is Scout's dad

who the heck is brain45??????? :devil:

trapr

The ONE with all the answers! (to the questions nobody asked)