Is a "no score" target legal?

[cas]

Are you allowed to have targets that aren't scored? I was wondering if it would be legal / acceptable to have a "no score" target. Using a popper as an optional activator, without giving a penalty to those who choose not to use it.

I was thinking along the lines of giving the shooter a choice between a more difficult shot, say a head shot behind no shoots at a decent distance, or shooting an activator which would cause the no shoot to drop away, making an easier, but much slower shot.

[Steve J]

Are you allowed to have targets that aren't scored? I was wondering if it would be legal / acceptable to have a "no score" target. Using a popper as an optional activator, without giving a penalty to those who choose not to use it.

I was thinking along the lines of giving the shooter a choice between a more difficult shot, say a head shot behind no shoots at a decent distance, or shooting an activator which would cause the no shoot to drop away, making an easier, but much slower shot.

If you're talking about a USPSA stage then the order will be optional anyway, so you can make the popper a scored target. The head box is visible, so it can be shot first then the popper, or the popper can be shot first and the shooter can wait for more of the cardboard target to become visible. No need to confuse the scoring. Without looking it up, I'd venture to say that if it's there it's a scored target.

[Nik Habicht]

Are you allowed to have targets that aren't scored? I was wondering if it would be legal / acceptable to have a "no score" target. Using a popper as an optional activator, without giving a penalty to those who choose not to use it.

I was thinking along the lines of giving the shooter a choice between a more difficult shot, say a head shot behind no shoots at a decent distance, or shooting an activator which would cause the no shoot to drop away, making an easier, but much slower shot.

No, you can't have a no score target.....

You can however set the stage so that it's slower to use the no-shoot drop option --- that way shooters who aren't sure they can make the shot have an option, and people who can are rewarded with a better time.....

[Graham Smith]

I'm not sure of the legality, but I've seen a local matche where they had a disappearing target. You have to shoot and try and hit it and hits are scored but there are no penalties for misses.

[Steve J]

Once again, I don't know if the OP is interested specifically in USPSA rules, but you don't have to shoot at a fully disappearing target as long as you hit the activator (9.9.2 and 9.9.3). Dumb rule IMO, but that doesn't matter.

9.9 Scoring of Moving Targets

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest

scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed

movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always

incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule

9.2.4.4).

9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria

are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot

at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to oper-

ating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of avail-

able hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

[Matt Cheely]

Move the popper into the shooting area, and have the competitor push it over by hand to activate the target.

[rgkeller]

You could used a non target activator such as a pressure pad or handle that would require a few additional steps to activate.

[sargenv]

I have on occasion used poppers and non legal steel (split poppers) as hard cover to partially block scorable targets. I've also used other barriers as soft cover (t-shirts in the way of targets, light netting, etc). I've also had it where I've used targets on a plate rack painted as hard cover. It really messes with people when not all of the targets on a texas star are scorable. It doesn't react the same when targets stay on it. I will likely do the same on the Polish Plate racks that should be in this week. I wonder if this is what the OP had in mind?

[JThompson]

Let's brainstorm here a bit.

I think there is an easier way to do what you want. You leave a longer head shot and then you have a door or popper etc downrange which eats time. The guy can take the long shot, or run up and activate the door and get an easy shot costing more time. If you take it from back then you walk up and just activate the target not costing you any time. Remember score is last shot fired. This way you could force a choice and still do everything you want to do.

An aside: What says you can't paint a popper black and call it hard cover and also use it to activate a target providing calibration rules apply?

[Nik Habicht]

An aside: What says you can't paint a popper black and call it hard cover and also use it to activate a target providing calibration rules apply?

Bad Stage Design --- if it's activating a shoot target. You're not supposed to shoot hardcover.....

On the other hand, if it closes a port, or raises a no-shoot, to make the shooting harder, that'd be o.k. Stage design note on closing ports: Gotta make sure that shooters are physically prevented from sticking their blaster through the port, by the appropriate use of barrels or fault lines to prevent getting too close....

[JThompson]

An aside: What says you can't paint a popper black and call it hard cover and also use it to activate a target providing calibration rules apply?

Bad Stage Design --- if it's activating a shoot target. You're not supposed to shoot hardcover.....

On the other hand, if it closes a port, or raises a no-shoot, to make the shooting harder, that'd be o.k. Stage design note on closing ports: Gotta make sure that shooters are physically prevented from sticking their blaster through the port, by the appropriate use of barrels or fault lines to prevent getting too close....

I understand Nik, and that's why it was not my first choice as a solution, but it just got me thinking... I know of no rule which would prevent it from being done. Rules man give me rules!

JT

[Nik Habicht]

An aside: What says you can't paint a popper black and call it hard cover and also use it to activate a target providing calibration rules apply?

Bad Stage Design --- if it's activating a shoot target. You're not supposed to shoot hardcover.....

On the other hand, if it closes a port, or raises a no-shoot, to make the shooting harder, that'd be o.k. Stage design note on closing ports: Gotta make sure that shooters are physically prevented from sticking their blaster through the port, by the appropriate use of barrels or fault lines to prevent getting too close....

I understand Nik, and that's why it was not my first choice as a solution, but it just got me thinking... I know of no rule which would prevent it from being done. Rules man give me rules!

JT

O.K. --- here's the problem: Shooter shoots all targets on the stage, and then asks for a reshoot because the mover never activated. The activating popper is not a target, it's not located where the competitor could reach it, what exactly requires him to shoot it? If he files an arb, the stage is getting tossed --- if we're going to ask someone to shoot at something (activating popper) then that something is a target, and needs to score as such.....

In fact, when we've done port closings --- those have always been defined penalty poppers; probably to avoid just such an arb.....

[LPatterson]

The OP is talking about having the popper move a noshoot making as easier shot at a scoring target so let's try to work with the question. As long as the upper A zone is available it is a score-able target that is partially blocked by a no shoot. Scoring doesn't change if there is a non scoring target that can be shot to make the scoring target more visiable. List it in the WSB and you have met requirements of the rule book.

[Yankee Dog]

The problem is at least partially one of semantics. Dont call the thing a target. Call it an activator. Hit the activator and the no shoots fall away. Skip the activator and just take the more difficult head shot. your choice.

It is a bit different and out of the normal box. I like it.

yankee dog

[JThompson]

An aside: What says you can't paint a popper black and call it hard cover and also use it to activate a target providing calibration rules apply?

Bad Stage Design --- if it's activating a shoot target. You're not supposed to shoot hardcover.....

On the other hand, if it closes a port, or raises a no-shoot, to make the shooting harder, that'd be o.k. Stage design note on closing ports: Gotta make sure that shooters are physically prevented from sticking their blaster through the port, by the appropriate use of barrels or fault lines to prevent getting too close....

I understand Nik, and that's why it was not my first choice as a solution, but it just got me thinking... I know of no rule which would prevent it from being done. Rules man give me rules!

JT

O.K. --- here's the problem: Shooter shoots all targets on the stage, and then asks for a reshoot because the mover never activated. The activating popper is not a target, it's not located where the competitor could reach it, what exactly requires him to shoot it? If he files an arb, the stage is getting tossed --- if we're going to ask someone to shoot at something (activating popper) then that something is a target, and needs to score as such.....

In fact, when we've done port closings --- those have always been defined penalty poppers; probably to avoid just such an arb.....

Were not talking about a mover, were talking about a fixed target that has a ns or hc target partially blocking. Let's make it easy and say we have a long head shot only without activation and a hc target that. "if activated clears the paper like a tip out. This target can be engaged as a head shot and is not a disappearing target therefore it must be engaged. Whether you want to take the head shot or the full shot would depend on if you wanted to activate the hc drop out. It could be written up that way in the WSB and I see nothing that would prevent such a prop from being used. You could also have a secondary activation of said hc say a pressure plate that was some distance away and would eat time.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here Nik, just trying to gain a better knowledge of what can and can not be done by the letter of the rules.

JT

[JThompson]

The OP is talking about having the popper move a noshoot making as easier shot at a scoring target so let's try to work with the question. As long as the upper A zone is available it is a score-able target that is partially blocked by a no shoot. Scoring doesn't change if there is a non scoring target that can be shot to make the scoring target more visiable. List it in the WSB and you have met requirements of the rule book.

I missed your post Mr. P and I agree with you.

JT

[cas]

I know there are plenty of other ways to go about it as far as optional activators go... I was just wondering if you could have an activator that you shot, that wasn't a "target" in the normal sense. (score wise)

[Steve J]

I think the short answer was no, you cannot.

[markcic]

I know there are plenty of other ways to go about it as far as optional activators go... I was just wondering if you could have an activator that you shot, that wasn't a "target" in the normal sense. (score wise)

There are stages where you throw something in a barrel or drop something down a chute. If you have an activator that the shooter must hit with an object such as a ball or allow them to hit it with a bullet wouldn't that accomplish your goal and still be legal.