Synergy, balance, perfection.....

[AriM]

I am about to start experimenting with some different weight combos....I got the wolff master packs (every spring weight they make) and am going to try to find a good balance.....right now i am running a 17 pound main spring and a 16.5 pound variable recoil spring and an extra power firing pin spring....I did lighten my entire trigger group though....ultra light c&s hammer (light speed 2), lightened disconnect, low mass sear, egw titanium hammer strut and egw titanium short main spring cap (and c&s TiN coated hammer/sear pins).....also a titanium firing pin....i can't imagine that I would get light strikes with that set-up, at ANY weight of main-spring....I wonder if a lighter recoil spring and heavier main spring, along with some heavy slide glide would really soften up the gun...do you guys think that would result in too slow of a slide? maybe someone with experience using heavy slide glide could chime in?

maybe I am trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist??

[Matt Cheely]

12 / 17lb with a good radius on the FP stop. You'd be amazed how much the FP stop has to do with it.

[AriM]

12 / 17lb with a good radius on the FP stop. You'd be amazed how much the FP stop has to do with it.

I know this QUITE well....let me show you thanks for the suggestion on the 12 pound recoil spring....will try that tomorrow

[Matt Cheely]

That lack of a radius will oval out your hammer pin.

[AriM]

That lack of a radius will oval out your hammer pin.

lack of?? i see no signs of wear on my hammer pin....i will check for anything that is out of round though....explain why that would happen?? how much radius would you suggest....I am using the EGW oversized/flat bottom to slow down the slide....and I have the radius on the right side to counteract the torque of the rifling....less flip and no flip to the high right....massive difference from the standard "round bottom" FP stop....can you school me a bit? thanks

[Matt Cheely]

Not the pin, but the hole for the pin will eventually oval to some extent. With no radius on there instead of helping the hammer to rotate, you're trying to push it straight back and that puts a lot of force on the pin.

I have no idea why you'd think that having a radius only on the right side would change how it works. The hammer is going to be contacted by the point farthest out on the FP stop. Doesn't matter if it's on the right, left, or it's properly cut evenly.

All we're doing is controlling the spread of the recoil impulse, and the spring energy going into picking up the new round.

[AriM]

Not the pin, but the hole for the pin will eventually oval to some extent. With no radius on there instead of helping the hammer to rotate, you're trying to push it straight back and that puts a lot of force on the pin.

I have no idea why you'd think that having a radius only on the right side would change how it works. The hammer is going to be contacted by the point farthest out on the FP stop. Doesn't matter if it's on the right, left, or it's properly cut evenly.

All we're doing is controlling the spread of the recoil impulse, and the spring energy going into picking up the new round.

less resistance and no clocking of the extractor....I picked up this tip from a few other forums....I have tried both with and with-out....and it does seem to make a difference....let me link you to a discussion on it...

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php...firing+pin+stop

there are a few more discussions on the subject...and I am not sure if anyone is truly correct, but I can testify, that I "think" I can feel the difference....I have one w/o radius and one with....have you tried this your self?

maybe give it a shot before jumping to a conclusion?

I am going to take your advice and look at the firing pin hole....will measure it with micrometer/caliper....let's see if it is ovaling out....

what you say about distributing the force on the radius makes sense....but wouldn't that only affect the FP stop itself? not the hammer or hammer pins? I mean the exact same ammount of pressure is being generated on the pin....it is just concentrated on the bottom of the fp STOP.....HMMM I need to do some testing here....if you are right, then I am at risk of damaging my frame....that is no bueno....I still need to see some more emphatic evidence to go along with that, but thank you very much for the suggestion....I might owe you a box of ammo for the tip someday....

[Matt Cheely]

I've tried it. Gone all the way from no radius to the maximum radius. With a variation of springs.

Every gunsmith building competition 1911/2011 will have a large radius on the FP stop. Coincidence? I think not.

[AriM]

I've tried it. Gone all the way from no radius to the maximum radius. With a variation of springs.

Every gunsmith building competition 1911/2011 will have a large radius on the FP stop. Coincidence? I think not.

not true....I have seen quite a few pistols with a flat bottom....did you read the link I posted?? I am def. not trying to argue with you....you have much more experience than me....but you still aren't giving me a reason WHY it needs to have a radius and how large that radius should be....again I am the student here, but I need you to school me....way to easy to say "it's just that way"....that won't work for me....again not trying to argue....you have the upper hand, but I am not seeing any back-up on what you are saying, and the way I have mine set-up is causing me NO trouble and has solved some problems I was having....the springs are another issue....and I am taking your advice on that one...I am going to try the 12 pound spring in a few hours at the range actually....so thanks for that....on the FP stop, please be more specific....thanks

P.S. I checked the hammer pin and the hammer pin hole....I wrote down the specs. when I built my gun (because I had to fit the c&s oversized pins)....the hole is still perfectly round and the pin is the same....this is after 2000 rounds (give or take)...one thing I am noticing though.....my trigger is starting to feel a bit "spongy"....it's def. not as crisp as when I built it...but maybe that's me just getting used to it, and being snobby now...I will look at the hammer sear relationship under my magnifier....I really hope you are wrong about the lack of radius thing...not because I want to be right....but I put a lot of money time and blood/tears into this gun....thanks for trying to help me

[Matt Cheely]

I browsed over the link you posted. And while I'm not saying that they don't know what they're talking about. There's a difference between people who shoot a few thousand rounds a year, and those that shoot tens of thousands of rounds a year.

If the square bottom edge worked, you'd see people on here advocating their use.

[AriM]

I browsed over the link you posted. And while I'm not saying that they don't know what they're talking about. There's a difference between people who shoot a few thousand rounds a year, and those that shoot tens of thousands of rounds a year.

If the square bottom edge worked, you'd see people on here advocating their use.

ok, so can you tell me WHY?? and if you can tell me why I should have the radius, can you please tell me how much radius....I am really concerned about my trigger, now that I checked it....I honestly think i am being paranoid....but you ahve got me worried....

P.S. I am the later of the 2 groups you mentioned....I shoot over 3000 rounds a month....trying to get there man....give or take

Edited December 12, 2009 by AriM

[Matt Cheely]

I want the gun to feel good, but also be able to track the sights. If the front sight rips up and out of the notch then it's going to be harder to track. That's what the square edge is going to do, you're concentrating recoil into the beginning of the cycle lifting the sights early. I want to keep the front of the gun down till the slide gets to the end of it's travel and then impart its energy into the frame in one impact. That way the front sight lifts leisurely out of the notch and then only kicks up after I've called my shot.

[AriM]

I want the gun to feel good, but also be able to track the sights. If the front sight rips up and out of the notch then it's going to be harder to track. That's what the square edge is going to do, you're concentrating recoil into the beginning of the cycle lifting the sights early. I want to keep the front of the gun down till the slide gets to the end of it's travel and then impart its energy into the frame in one impact. That way the front sight lifts leisurely out of the notch and then only kicks up after I've called my shot.

ok now that makes sense....softer initial impact...I get it....i have an extra FP stop....I am cutting it as we speak...do you think a radius of .62" is enough?? by the way....I am shooting uncompensated (limited 10 in a single stack)....also I have my gun set-up so that it has A LOT of lockup....my slide moves a good 1/8 of an inch before my barrel starts to drop....do you think that's a bad thing? I worked very hard to get it to do that....honestly my gun feels so good right now....I almost feel like I am chasing problems that don't exist....at the same time....I want to keep my gun feeling this good....I have put countless hours of my own labor, and thousands of dollars into tools, fixtures, parts and measuring devices to get it to where it's at....I am also going to be building a gun for my uncle and my good friend next month (so they can shoot with me)....I really don't want to build guns that don't last...I mean the proof is in the pudding, and this gun is fantastic....but I would feel terrible if I built something for my friends/family that didn't last....your help is very much appreciated...

[GentlemanJim]

AriM

Matt knows exactly what he is talking about...and has YEARS of experience building some of the coolest guns around.

You may wish to listen to his advice!

Jim

[AriM]

AriM

Matt knows exactly what he is talking about...and has YEARS of experience building some of the coolest guns around.

You may wish to listen to his advice!

Jim

Jim

I have no doubt about that, but I like people to explain/back-up advice....not trying to be smug or arrogant....I know that Matt knows his sh!t...but I like to learn the why's and why not's along the way.....I am eternal grateful/appreciative of ANYONE who takes the time to explain WHY to me...it's very easy for people on the internet to say "just do this, and everything will be great"....that's how my gun got set-up w/o enough radius to begin with....so, as stated to Matt, I am taking the advice and cutting a new FP stop as we speak....just waiting for Matt to give me a good radius dimension....I like to take the advice of others, add in my own experience and apply common sense....that way I am not left with blood on my hands....or if I am, I can't point the finger and say YOU told me to do blah blah blah....and I did it, so it's YOUR fault...just trying to keep myself and everyone else honest and objective....thanks to all for putting up with me and for the advice....you guys have my sincere thanks.....if we ever meet up....Matt...I owe you a neat glass of good liquor and a box of ammo....

P.S. Jim, my names Ari....you can call me that (as long as I can call you Jim)

[AriM]

I just had a MAJOR epiphany/revelation about what Matt is talking about....the FP stop hitting the hammer face too early (before the gun is out of battery) would immediately kick up the front of the gun...I can see it in slow motion in my head...laws of mechanics 101....the recoil of the impact would kick the back of the magwell down...causing the front to lift, before the barrel has dropped out of the lugs....makes perfect sense....thanks again Matt...hope I can help you with something someday....

[Matt Cheely]

Glad you got it.

[AriM]

Glad you got it.

Glad you had the patience to work through it with me....you are a good teacher...most would have given up....

so would you be so gracious, as to tell me how much radius to cut on this new FP stop....or am I pushing my luck??

[Matt Cheely]

Glad you got it.

Glad you had the patience to work through it with me....you are a good teacher...most would have given up....

so would you be so gracious, as to tell me how much radius to cut on this new FP stop....or am I pushing my luck??

I cut it by hand, and it's not a constant radius, more of an exponential curve.

[AriM]

Glad you got it.

Glad you had the patience to work through it with me....you are a good teacher...most would have given up....

so would you be so gracious, as to tell me how much radius to cut on this new FP stop....or am I pushing my luck??

I cut it by hand, and it's not a constant radius, more of an exponential curve.

thanks Matt, you are a gentleman....the radius should taper off towards the bottom....I will measure it against my slide movement....I am being greedy and making a bad assumption that the radius should be the same for all guns...I will measure the initial contact point on the hammer....give it a gentle slope and then get a bit more aggressive as soon as the barrel drops out of the lugs....the best teachers, teach w/o saying much....the worst students blindly stray from the path....

EDIT:

doesn't look too pretty, but neither does the gun right now....I stripped the finish off the slide a few days ago...will clean up my cuts on the FP stop when I re-finish the slide....for now I am just roughing it, so I can get out to the range and try your spring suggestion....thanks again

Edited December 12, 2009 by AriM

[GentlemanJim]

Ari

When I cut that radius...it starts at the bottom of the FPS and curves up about 3/16 inch

Kinda hard to explain...but I know I have seen pics on the forum...You may be able to search them out

Jim

Edited December 13, 2009 by GentlemanJim

[ParaGunner]

Great info! I have been running a square fp stop also thinking it was reducing recoil. Time to put a nice bevel on it.

[AriM]

Ari

When I cut that radius...it starts at the bottom of the FPS and curves up about 3/16 inch

Kinda hard to explain...but I know I have seen pics on the forum...You may be able to search them out

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for the tip....I started the radius slope at the initial contact point and then reduced the curve and got a bit more aggressive as the barrel drop off the locking lugs....I used dykem blue layout fluid to find the spots....man I wish I had a jig for measuring those points....can you tell from my pictures if I did enough of a cut?? I really appreciate you guys and your patience and advice!!! I wish I could buy you all a round of your favorite....

[Flexmoney]

Now that the FPS seems covered...

....also I have my gun set-up so that it has A LOT of lockup....my slide moves a good 1/8 of an inch before my barrel starts to drop....

In my mind, you are talking about two different things there. When I think of the amount of lockup, what I am thinking about is the measurement of the upper barrel lugs interaction with the slide lug recesses.

How far the slide and barrel travel in recoil while staying in lockup would be a different thing.

[AriM]

Now that the FPS seems covered...

....also I have my gun set-up so that it has A LOT of lockup....my slide moves a good 1/8 of an inch before my barrel starts to drop....

In my mind, you are talking about two different things there. When I think of the amount of lockup, what I am thinking about is the measurement of the upper barrel lugs interaction with the slide lug recesses.

How far the slide and barrel travel in recoil while staying in lockup would be a different thing.

no we are talking about the same thing....I think my description is just bad...I am talking about the amount of slide movement that it takes for the barrel lugs to full disengage from the slide lugs....from what I understand this is how you measure the "lock-up"....take a caliper and measure the distance from the top of the slide to the barrel hood/chamber....then bring the slide back until the barrel disengages out of the lugs and starts to drop...measure the distance from the top of the slide to the barrel hood again....subtract the first number from the second....that is your "lock-up" .... 30 thousandths to 60 thousandths is the ideal range.... the larger that number, the longer your barrel is staying engaged withing the lugs....I have been told that the ideal number is about 57 thousandths....you can adjust that by using a specific width of swiss file, to fit in between your barrel lugs and "pads"....the one that Kart sells is perfect, and it's what I used to tune my barrel to that 57 thousandths number....maybe you already know all of this, and I am just repeating common knowledge....or it could be that my descriptions are bad....it could also be that I am a total ass and don't know what I am talking about...in either event we are talking about the same thing....

maybe you guys have some more suggestions for me? I really am appreciative of the info and eager to learn more....I think i know what I am doing, but often times it takes people with more experience to convince me that I in fact have no clue....

I tried the radiused FP stop today with the 12# spring....if anything I noticed that the gun jumped more than it did before...in fact I shot so bad today, that I left the range feeling sick to my stomach....I have a feeling I am either chasing non-existent problems, or that I have gotten used to a specific set-up....and that set-up was working well for me....the thing I know for sure....is that I like my gun the way it was before I made the radius and went to the 12# spring...maybe I just need to get used to it again....this is a never ending cycle....I need to just stop messing with things and use what works and go win some matches....I still appreciate all the help though...