Fedex AGGGGGGGggggghhhhhh....

[Hank Ellis]

QUOTE (Hank Ellis @ Dec 8 2009, 07:08 PM)

Just got a call this morning from my gunsmith. My 1911 is ready. When we got to the point of shipping the person asked if overnight or standard ground.

"I thought all handguns had to go overnight?"

'If it's a handgun then yes. Break it down into 2 boxes then it becomes machine parts and it can go by ground.'

"Then send me my machine parts."

Always a loophole if you can find it.

Ummmm, I am not so sure that a frame with a serial number on it is going to meet the definition of machine parts, at least in the eyes of ATF. I am certainly not the authority on this though.

I can assure you that a frame with a serial number with no other parts attached is not a machine part, that item is a firearm, by all definitions.

All "other" parts can be shipped as machine parts interstate. BATFE will take a dim view on this if you are ever caught out.

Do not piss them off for $20 as previously stated.

Take my word for that.

Just to be clear. This is MY gun. I own this gun and have for several years. I hand delivered it to my gunsmith. He (or she) has finished the work and is returning it to ME. I can either do an 8 hour roundtrip drive to pick it up or have it shipped. The ATF has nothing to do with this as no transfer is taking place. In addition this is an intra- rather than an inter-state shipment.

Of course if a transfer is to take place then the serialed part must go through a FFL. No arguement here.

What I do have a problem with is UPS and FedEx forcing you to send a handgun overnight because of their own policies. The machine parts solution is a way one gunsmith works around it.

[el pres]

I was always told that you "have" to go to the distribution hub with a firearm.

Since I have one near by I've always gone there and had no problems, if the

person at the counter did'nt know what to do the guy in the back sure did ??

Now delivery, thats another thing all together, just had UPS leave my buddies brand new

6" from a famous Benoverse gunsmith on the front porch all day without a signiture !!

[kgunz11]

Hank, handguns must be shipped 2nd Day Air or faster. Overnight is not required. Rather you OWN the handgun or not is irrelevant, the BATFE is the Governments regulating body for all things firearm related. Rather they be in your car or their truck, it doesn't matter, there are laws governing how they can be transported.

[waxman]

I recenlty went through all of this crap. After all of that I found that the only choice I had locally to send a Hadgun to a FFL was to use UPS overnight. I did everything they wanted and found out, with the rate and insurance, it was going to be over $60 to ship the pistol. I promply said ,screw that. I took it to my local gunshop, and they sent it for me using the U.S. mail. It cost I think $20 or so with insurance. Of course I bought a bunch of primers while I was there to show my appreciation. The dealer told me the next time I send in a pistol, just send it through the mail, and say it is just gun parts.

[kgunz11]

Waxman, that's where the USPS and UPS are different. If you take the firing pin out of a handgun according to UPS it is not longer a handgun. USPS says that any sum of parts that could, when completed, become a handgun IS a handgun. Only FFL holders can ship a handgun through USPS. After you register the package, insure it, track it the best you can, you are back to the cost of sending it with UPS with a better tracking system. Have any of you ever filed a claim with USPS? It's not worth it, I assure you.

People, don't lie about what you are shipping to save a few bucks, it isn't worth the consequences of committing mail fraud.

[Chris Keen]

Mail fraud is bad enough (thats a Federal offense in itself). But violating Federal Firearms Transfer regulations is a tiny bit worse. Either one can land you in Federal court / prison / or at the very least a hefty fine.

When you consider the cost of 2nd day air shipping ($40-50) verses the hefty fine that could be imposed, and or the cost of an attorney ......... just pay the extra $20-30.

[Brazos Custom]

This comes up every few months. Below is the info direct off the UPS website. Note that receivers or frames are considered firearms, firearms must be delared as such to the driver or agent, firearms cannot be shipped from ups stores, firearms must be shipped next day air.

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms

Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment

UPS accepts packages containing firearms, as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code, for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code, law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States) and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), and from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient and package.

Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).

UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm, firearm mufflers and silencers are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms.)

UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment.

Firearms, including handguns, and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally

Ammunition may be accepted for shipment internationally provided it is shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping International Goods.

UPS ReturnsSM Services are not available for packages containing firearms.

Follow These Packing Requirements

Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS.

Ammunition cannot be included in packages that contain firearms (including handguns). Ammunition must be shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping Ground and Air Hazardous Materials, or the UPS Guide for Shipping International Dangerous Goods.

Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments.

About Documentation and Labeling

The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery.

Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS

You can only ship your package that contains a handgun from UPS daily pickup accounts or through UPS Customer Centers (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Handguns are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or UPS On-Call PickupSM, or at The UPS Store® or any third party retailer.

When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.

You can ship a firearm (excluding handguns), from a UPS daily pickup account, UPS On-Call Pickup, One-Time Pickup, or a UPS Customer Center. Note: Firearms are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or at The UPS Store or any third party retailer.

See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for information regarding firearm shipments.

[Brazos Custom]

p.s FedEx procedures/regulations are very similar.

[spanky]

have you called your local FFLs to see how much they would charge to ship? one here locally charges $20 to ship a handgun USPS priority, whereas overnight fedex or UPS is twice that.

[Patrick Sweeney]

OK, one more time, and I'll go and adjust my caffeine dose:

You do not need an FFL to ship a firearm, any firearm, to a manufacturer for repair or adjustment, or to a gunsmith for repair.

However: YOU MUST GO TO AN ACTUAL, HONEST-TO-GOD FEDEX/UPS HUB. You cannot ship a firearm from a "store." Federal regs do not allow it. The store is not FedEx/UPS, they are a sub-contractor.

As far as the Feds are concerned, dropping a firearm off at a "store" is the same as handing to to your neighbor and saying "give this to the FedEx/UPS counter people when you drive by, will ya?" Or any other random person who happens to walk by your door, when you want your firearm shipped.

Go to a real FedEx/UPS counter, know the regs, and stop this thrashing and screwing around. And no whining!

[kgunz11]

Yup, I stand corrected, Fed Ex and UPS require overnight shipping.

[Middle Man]

OK, one more time, and I'll go and adjust my caffeine dose:

You do not need an FFL to ship a firearm, any firearm, to a manufacturer for repair or adjustment, or to a gunsmith for repair.

However: YOU MUST GO TO AN ACTUAL, HONEST-TO-GOD FEDEX/UPS HUB. You cannot ship a firearm from a "store." Federal regs do not allow it. The store is not FedEx/UPS, they are a sub-contractor.

As far as the Feds are concerned, dropping a firearm off at a "store" is the same as handing to to your neighbor and saying "give this to the FedEx/UPS counter people when you drive by, will ya?" Or any other random person who happens to walk by your door, when you want your firearm shipped.

Go to a real FedEx/UPS counter, know the regs, and stop this thrashing and screwing around. And no whining!

Precisely. And for good reason...

For the shippers, their rules (outside of Mr. Sweeney's point) regarding firearms (particularly handguns) are about risk management, loss prevention and good ol' CYA. The FedEx and UPS requirement for overnight handgun shipping (they do offer 2nd Day to wholesalers) is largely aimed at limiting the number of hands that touch the package and limiting the amount of time the package is in their possession.

The Next Day/2nd Day services are separate and more controlled while packages are at the hubs and in transit. In theory, at least, the faster shipping options are more secure. As silly as it sounds, if I ship a wholesale handgun order to a dealer seven miles down the road, the package takes a flight to Memphis or Louisville and then flies back to Birmingham for delivery the next day. Even as secure as their systems and procedures are, handguns have been stolen in transit. A whole truck that loaded up at our dock one afternoon was stolen (by the driver) before it got to the hub at the airport. We've lost a few handgun shipments in plane accidents as well.

As for USPS, their service is no where near as controlled and secure. In certain situations, Priority Mail works as a reasonable alternative.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Middle Man

[Loves2Shoot]

Just got a call this morning from my gunsmith. My 1911 is ready. When we got to the point of shipping the person asked if overnight or standard ground.

"I thought all handguns had to go overnight?"

'If it's a handgun then yes. Break it down into 2 boxes then it becomes machine parts and it can go by ground.'

"Then send me my machine parts."

Always a loophole if you can find it.

Your gunsmith should read the ATF regs again. A serialized modern pistol frame is not a machine part, regardless of what is attached to it.

We send customers prepaid labels if they want them, as many service desk people do not know their own policies, and this can be helpful, as they can have the shipping center call me if they have an issue.

We do a lot of shipping and so we do get the occasional call that a ill informed service desk person is giving a customer a hard time, and I have no issues with getting their name and escalating it to someone who cares about keeping our business.

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

From what our local shipping center has told me, the statement is between you and the counter person.

I will not use the USPS to ship a firearm, period.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Loves2Shoot

[kgunz11]

I will not use the USPS to ship a firearm, period.

That makes 2 of us Scott. Hope your powder showed up safely. I use UPS exclusively now, Fed Ex is barely a step above USPS.

[Loves2Shoot]

I will not use the USPS to ship a firearm, period.

That makes 2 of us Scott. Hope your powder showed up safely. I use UPS exclusively now, Fed Ex is barely a step above USPS.

Yep, nice and dry, when it thaws out, maybe I can burn some of it

I think the UPS versus FedEx depends a lot on the hub that services you. We are fortunate to have good folks working at both here.

[Hank Ellis]

Just got a call this morning from my gunsmith. My 1911 is ready. When we got to the point of shipping the person asked if overnight or standard ground.

"I thought all handguns had to go overnight?"

'If it's a handgun then yes. Break it down into 2 boxes then it becomes machine parts and it can go by ground.'

"Then send me my machine parts."

Your gunsmith should read the ATF regs again. A serialized modern pistol frame is not a machine part, regardless of what is attached to it.

Did some more digging on ATF regs and how they interface with UPS/FedEx policies.

It certainly appears that there is no way around it. The serialized part is the gun part of the gun. Stripped, disassembled, or fully assembled. If you ship the serialed part it has to be declared as such to the carrier by ATF regs. Since you've just declared that you're shipping a firearm you have to follow the carriers policies which in UPS case is Next Day Air and FedEx case is Priority Overnight.

Couldn't find a loophole without breaking ATF regulations. Not properly declaring what you're offering to the carrier for shipment is a big no-no in HazMat shipping which is my area of knowledge. Same with a firearm which follows ATF regs.

My gunsmith hasn't shipped it yet. I'll call and talk to them and see what line of thought they are using.