Factory varmint ammo in ARs

[Jack Suber]

I have a questiona bout using factory varmint ammo in ARs - i.e. the Hornady Vmax, etc.

I have a coyote problem on my hunting land and need to start zapping them. I would rather use one of my ARs rather than my larger caliber bolt guns. Anyway, I know that you can use factory hunting ammo in military semi autos because the slower powders in factory hunting rounds can damage the gas systems. So, should I have those concerns using factory varmint ammo in an AR? I have a nice JP AR (bull barrel, optics) that I would like to use on coyotes. However, I don't want to ruin anything in it by using factory ammo. It would be nice to not have to develop a load for coyotes....I'd rather be able to get out there and zap them...

Thanks.

[open17]

All of my AR's shoot Black Hills 50gr V-Max ammo well. The Black Hills 55gr HP stuff doesn't group well in some

rifles, OK in others.

You have some documentation on the "Factory hunting ammo can damage gas systems" claim? First I've

heard of it.

[kgunz11]

Jack, get some of the 55gr VMax loads from GA Arms. It will do exactly what you want without damaging your AR.

[MarkCO]

Good match barrels typicaly (due to twist rate) overspin the lighter bullets and they may explode in flight, but won't have great accuracy. My JP actually is rare in that it will shoot the 50 grain Nosler BTs very accurately. Go with 55 grain or heavier to be safe. While it makes sense that light jackets, light weight varmint bullets might foul the bore faster, never heard the damage issue you mentioned.

Edited December 5, 2009 by MarkCO

[Jack Suber]

Thanks for the replies. The damage I am referring to deals with the gas systems. There are many warnings about using slower powders in M1s and M1As. The slower powders damage the gas systems and operating rods of the those rifles. I was wondering if the same were true with AR type rifles. Then again, would the Vmax factory types also use slower powders.

Open17 - there is a lot of documentation regarding the use of slower powders in M1as, M1s, etc. That is why faster powders like IMR 4895 are recommended in those rifles. The M14 Owers Guide and Match Conditioning Instructions by Scott Duff and John Miller specifically warns against pressure spikes in the gas port system using powders slower than 4895.

[SDM]

What load do you normally shoot in the rifle? Do you really have to change? I've had good results with the 45gr hollowpoint Remington load in a 1:9 barrel. It's cheap too. I'm not sure about the pressure/damage issue, but if you decide that's not a concern you may want to try this load.

[open17]

Open17 - there is a lot of documentation regarding the use of slower powders in M1as, M1s, etc. That is why faster powders like IMR 4895 are recommended in those rifles. The M14 Owers Guide and Match Conditioning Instructions by Scott Duff and John Miller specifically warns against pressure spikes in the gas port system using powders slower than 4895.

Yup---well aware of the problems with slow powders in the Garand and it's offspring. Bent op-rods and worse.

Just never heard of slow powders being a problem in the AR platform. Appears that you took a specific statement:

"There are many warnings about using slower powders in M1s and M1As. The slower powders damage the gas systems and operating rods of the those rifles." and extended it to include all military semi auto's:

" I know that you can't use factory hunting ammo in military semi autos because the slower powders in factory hunting rounds can damage the gas systems."

[Jack Suber]

Open17 - there is a lot of documentation regarding the use of slower powders in M1as, M1s, etc. That is why faster powders like IMR 4895 are recommended in those rifles. The M14 Owers Guide and Match Conditioning Instructions by Scott Duff and John Miller specifically warns against pressure spikes in the gas port system using powders slower than 4895.

Yup---well aware of the problems with slow powders in the Garand and it's offspring. Bent op-rods and worse.

Just never heard of slow powders being a problem in the AR platform. Appears that you took a specific statement:

"There are many warnings about using slower powders in M1s and M1As. The slower powders damage the gas systems and operating rods of the those rifles." and extended it to include all military semi auto's:

" I know that you can't use factory hunting ammo in military semi autos because the slower powders in factory hunting rounds can damage the gas systems."

Thats why I was asking...I didn't know if the same issues apply to the AR. The AR thing is all new to me and considering how much this particular JP rifle costs, I didn;t want to take any chances. I have other ARs, but this is the more accurate of all of them and has better optics on it.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Jack Suber

[Jack Suber]

What load do you normally shoot in the rifle? Do you really have to change? I've had good results with the 45gr hollowpoint Remington load in a 1:9 barrel. It's cheap too. I'm not sure about the pressure/damage issue, but if you decide that's not a concern you may want to try this load.

I have been using factory 55grn FMJs. Actually, this JP will shoot practically anything accurately. 55grns +. So, I have been fortunate in that respect. Not sure I want to use FMjs on animals.

I was thinking AR also because I can get a quicker 2nd shot. I guess I could use my M1A. I developed an awesome load for it with Combined Tech BTs. But they will not open on a Coyote. They barely open on S.C. deer. Now on pigs, its brutal...

[Rob01]

I have shot the 55grn V Max in both my ARs, POF 415 and Bushmaster, with no wear or problems with function. Very accurate too. Give them a try.

[kgunz11]

I'd hardly call 4895, 4064, Varget, and Re-15 "slower powders". By comparison, they are towards the middle of the burn chart. There are faster powders for the AR, but not many that are much slower than those. The above mentioned powders are typically used for the heavier bullets. In anything under 62gr you're going to have a faster burning powder. I recommend the 55gr Vmax from experience, though I cannot post evidence of that experience here.

ETA: I think Atl Arms makes a load for the AMU with the 55gr Vmax as well.

Edited December 5, 2009 by kgunz11

[G-ManBart]

I'd hardly call 4895, 4064, Varget, and Re-15 "slower powders". By comparison, they are towards the middle of the burn chart. There are faster powders for the AR, but not many that are much slower than those. The above mentioned powders are typically used for the heavier bullets. In anything under 62gr you're going to have a faster burning powder. I recommend the 55gr Vmax from experience, though I cannot post evidence of that experience here.

ETA: I think Atl Arms makes a load for the AMU with the 55gr Vmax as well.

I think he said 4895 etc was a "faster" powder, but that was when he was talking about .308 and 30-06 (M1s and M1As)....i.e. you don't want to use something slower than that in those guns. I don't think it's entirely the powder burn rate that drives those warnings; milspec ammo for those two simply isn't loaded nearly to the levels as it is in hunting ammo for bolt guns.

Since an AR doesn't have an operating rod I wouldn't be too worried about using heavier loads in it. In fact, high power shooters aren't using exactly light loads for their 600yd ammo (at least many of them) and it doesn't seem to hurt the guns. R,

[kgunz11]

I didn't read all the posts Bart, so I did not see his 4895 reference. To get down to it, "faster" is subjective. Faster than what? IMO, 4895 is a faster powder in my world of rifle shooting, but N310 is "faster" in handgun cartridges.

[open17]

Thats why I was asking...I didn't know if the same issues apply to the AR. The AR thing is all new to me and considering how much this particular JP rifle costs, I didn;t want to take any chances. I have other ARs, but this is the more accurate of all of them and has better optics on it.

Guess I kind of misread it that you KNEW slow powders would harm AR gas systems. Sorry bout that!

Anyway--now I'm curious. What is out there in a heavier bullet factory varmint load for fast twist

AR's? All my guns ar 1:9, and they run the 50 gr V-Max nicely. There are a few 55 gr varmint bullets,

but does anybody load a 60gr+ in a thin jacketed varmint bullet for the 5.56/.223?

[MarkCO]

What is out there in a heavier bullet factory varmint load for fast twist

AR's? All my guns ar 1:9, and they run the 50 gr V-Max nicely. There are a few 55 gr varmint bullets,

but does anybody load a 60gr+ in a thin jacketed varmint bullet for the 5.56/.223?

Nosler maeks a 60 grain Varmint Ballistic tip, $39/250, and Hornady makes a 60 gr. V-Max, $17/100, both of which work well in my fast twist ARs.

[Modoc]

Jack,

I am loading the 55 V-max on top of BLC-2 as an all around 223 load for both 3-gun (hopefully) and varmint load. In fact my rifle has more crittur time than match time . PM me if you would like the load. I am shooting a RR Preadator Persuit upper with their 8.5:1 NM barrel and my Father is using a White Oak varmiter with a 7:1 twist and my load is printing about 1/2" at 100 IF we take the time to bench it correctly .

I'd just try one of the factory 55's and see how it groups. Remember "Miniute of Coyote" is a bit different than some of the targets that we try to shoot at matches.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Modoc

[ShooterSteve]

I bought a bunch of Hornady 50gr vmax for a PD hunt. They were on a big sale, so I bought a ton of them. When I started 3gunning I just started shooting my PD loads out of my ARs, and they run great. You shouldn't have a problem with bullets coming apart. ARs generally don't generate the velocity needed for them to come apart. You may see that with some hot 220 swift loads or something. Of course as soon as I say this, someone will come on and dispute it, so it isn't written in stone, but, my 50 gr vmax shoot very good from a 9 twist 20" DPMS at 3175fps. There are so many good bullets out there. The Noslers mentioned above are great. My 25-06 loves Noslers. Of course the bullets aren't match bullets, but I routinely get groups in the .6s with them. Won't get me any trophies at a BR match, but makes me smile when I shoot it.

[Modoc]

Guys, check out the local ordinances. As an insturctor for the Dept of Fish and Game her in California, in need to point out a couple of things.

In CA it is against the law to use non expanding bullets for ANY type of hunting. Besides there is an ethics issiue here, the faster and cleaner that we can make the take/kill the better it is for the animal and ourselves including image. Remember that POSITIVE PR is now part of every gun owner's responsibility.

Below is an exerpt of the CA Fish and game code which also applies to non-game and fur-bearers. I did not ad the section about the Non-lead ammuntion needed in the Condor area.

§353. Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game.

(a) Except for the provisions of subsections 353( through (h), Title 14, CCR, big game (as defined by Section 350, Title 14, CCR) may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles; bow and arrow (see Section 354, Title 14, CCR, for archery equipment regulations); or wheellock, matchlock, flintlock or percussion type, including "in-line" muzzleloading rifles using black powder or equivalent black powder substitute, including pellets, with a single projectile loaded from the muzzle and at least .40 caliber in designation. For purposes of Section 353, a "projectile" is defined as any bullet, ball, sabot, slug, buckshot or other device which is expelled from a firearm through a barrel by force.

Method of Take for Mammals

[benos]

I removed the non-technical, "killing / animal dying" posts from this thread.

benos