gmshtr Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 What would be a good Limited Shotgun time to fire two rounds at three targets at 10 yards. The gun is loaded with five rounds, with a reload for the 6th shot? Starting from the high ready position, facing the targets, with a 14"Benelli I did a 3.05sec with 00Buck. My co-worker did one in 2.73 (with a great load, obviously). Are these good times? We really don't know. Don't worry Taran, I probably won't be able to shoot 3-gun next year......like he should worry! Phil Strader Pistol Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillL223 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I've never tried this and I don't know your start position but maybe the following will help. With port arm start a good first shot time is about .65, splits on a target can be as low as .15, splits between target should be about .25 depending distance between targets. Add your reload time. I have seen 5 poppers dropped in 1.42 with the gun started on the shoulder but muzzel on a table (bowling pin style). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Sims Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 What is the correct position for starting a shotgun start in the following: "Ready"--- "Low-Ready"-- The question really is for the two positions above, " Where is the buttstock and where is the muzzle? Can the muzzle be up at eye level with the target if the buttstock is against you side? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Phil: low to mid 2s seemed to be about the norm at the European Shotgun Championships. 5 poppers and a half size cross popper to indicat the winner, one reload any time after the first shot. the shotgun touching the belt held horizontal to the ground..... a European thing. I have done it once in 2.32 but that is on the ragged edge, and I must admit it was timming more than skill. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Isn't the "El Presidente" supposed to be done with back to the target? Just curious that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Isn't the "El Presidente" supposed to be done with back to the target? Just curious that's all I have always understood the "El" version of the Presidente to be @ 10 yards with back to targets, and the "Vice" version to be @ 7 yards, facing targets. Both from surrender start position. How could you make a surrender start work for shotgun anyway? Funny thing here is I remember a video of TGO demonstrating the "El Presidente" on three steel IPSC targets @ ten yards. He said that with enough practice anyone should be able to do this in under 5 seconds and proceeded to run it in 4 sumthin' from a "facing" the targets surrender start. BTW Phil, IMHO 2 anything is smokin' for that type of drill with a shotgun. If you are shooting to lock then just dropping a round in and slapping the gate for your reload, I'm thinking a 3 Gun Gear Slide Lock 2 Pac holder could possibly shave some more tenths. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 PacMan has a point! Now that I think about it it would be more of a Dozier drill. I agree anything that starts with 2. anything is really good! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Both from surrender start position. How could you make a surrender start work for shotgun anyway? Just for grin, we'd done the El Prez with rifle at "indoor ready" position and back to target, I guess we could try that with the shotgun too. However, my guess is at 2.something seconds, I would still be recovering from the first shot's recoil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Phil, good to see you wanting to shoot 3-gun w/ us this year. You are a top shooter & will do well. Come on in, the waters warm & full of great whites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Jason and I were loading the last shell from our belt, and the Benelli was totally stock. With the right equipment, I figured it could be faster. BTW Benny, USPSA has restricted my pistol shooting to one nationals, so I may as well try something new, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLJ Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 George, You'd think you would be right about the use of a 2 Pac being faster and maybe it is. I guess maybe I have not mastered it yet, because my loads from the belt are consistently 2 tenths faster than coming from the 2 Pac. That shouldn't be so but the time doesn't lie. JLJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 shot it today, 2.44 first run. I had to game it a little phil & reloaded the shell when the timer went off so as not to refocus after fireing. you have to do this when you get old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 You'd think you would be right about the use of a 2 Pac being faster and maybe it is. I guess maybe I have not mastered it yet, because my loads from the belt are consistently 2 tenths faster than coming from the 2 Pac. That shouldn't be so but the time doesn't lie Hi JLJ, You are probably right about the belt being faster if you are talking about just loading one into the magazine via the loading gate and then shouldering again, but that isn't what the 2 Pac is 4. It is mostly used to cover the times when U realize U've gone and locked the sucker back, and now whatyagonnado? (I hear the 2 Pac is also called the "Oh Shjt" for this very same reason). If I understood Phil correctly he described starting with 5 rounds (only) loaded, then firing all five until lock back, then chucking the sixth one in the open receiver, slapping the loader to close the bolt and shooting the last shot. My hypothesis here is that a 5" forward stronghand movement, grabbing a round with a pinched thumb/forefinger grip, pulling it back 1.5 inches and then dropping the shell into the open receiver as the loader gate gets slapped with the small fingers is gonna be just a tad faster than going all the way down to the belt with the stronghand and then all the way back to the top of the receiver. Distance = Time whenever anything is sufficiently practiced to be smooth so the shortest path has to be the fasted method all else being equal. With a little practice, you barely even move the gun from the shoulder with this method, just rotate it a little so the shell drops into the receiver, then back again as you regain your shooting grip with the stronghand. I haven't timed this yet, but I do know that accidental lockback re-loads are a lot more straightforward now and seem to be a bit faster when I use the 2 Pac compared to when I used to go to a Choate tray on my belt for this type of chuck-in thing. I wind up lockin' back when I just need one more a lot more often than I should, so this type of loading is something I actually practice doing :-) I will try to see which is actually faster for me sometime soon. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Probably just me, but I've tried the 2 pac "Oh Shjt" thingy, and don't like it too much. Since my loading is done weak hand style, I can grab one from the choate carrier, port loaded it and fire, much much faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Phil, Jason reminds me of Ron. Fastest reload in USPSA in a hotel room, except Jason's the fastest shotgun reloader in a government range when nobody's watching. C'mon Jason, when are you gonna come out to a 3 gun match and get your game on? Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLJ Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Benny, I'm sure you would be a tad bit faster topping off the tube right from the start. But I think the idea and the only way I've seen this drill done is starting w/ 5, running the gun dry and then loading through the port for the sixth shot. Give that a try and see what you come up. PacMan, I'm with you.....reloads with the weak hand from the belt are the way to go. I've got some 3gungear 2X2's for sale if anyone wants them. Eric, and just FYI....It was in Blackwater and there was a few watching. But as far as coming out and getting my three gun game on this coming year I'm looking forward to it. Just wish there was more going on in this area. Going to Idaho in June? Hope to see you there. How's the new family addition? Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Now Benny, topping off from the buzzer, that's more than gamin it a little partner! But a 2.73 is top notch, ya'll got the best of me and I just walked down to the range in the dard and cold to see if that was as fast as I thought it was, it is. I broke below 3 with both the Benelli and a Gold but couldn't get quite to 2.73, thats fast! Good Holidays, shoot straight Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Jason, Just playin' with you. If you remember, I saw that reload at FLETC. Nah, I won't make Idaho, but I am going out to Reno. You should think about coming out. Joshua is doing fine, but to our dismay, has colic. We're getting through it as best we can, but I'm glad it happened on the second one. I don't think we would have had two if the first one was this tough. Are you going to travel to any matches? You should tag along with Phil and Turtle to some of the matches in North and South Carolina. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Benelli2: Come on man you aren't triing!... I tried it the way JLJ said to, and on the 3rd try got a 2.42. Believe it or don't the first two tries were even faster, but I left a plate up each time. I need to have Tood and Benny show me how to do that stand and hose thing again. In the imortal words of Sundance..... I'm better when I move!! KURT ps: did you and Todd ever get anything going on the class idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Correia Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 My local club (www.udpl.net) did a shotgun El Prez back in November however we did it a little bit different. We ran it just like the pistol El Prez only without the turn. So it was start with 6 in the gun, engage T1-T3 with 2 on each, reload 6, engage T1-T3 with 2 on each. Here is the actual COF sheet (www.udpl.net/results/3-Gun/111503s7.htm) So the times were much longer as this was a reloading contest. The best time was 9.43, the rest of the times amongst the good shooters started at 17.22, 18.53, 19.18, 19.65 etc. The 9.43 was a little misleading because I was using a Saiga mag fed SG. Almost all of the shooters used weak hand loading from the belt, one shell at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkgsmith Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Phil old buddy clarify this drill. I loaded 5, and started at port arms. Fired a double, double and single to bolt lock. Then loaded one and finished. Is this what your doing in sub 3 seconds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLJ Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Mr. Smith, Yes you would be correct. That is what the drill is. At 10 yards with the targets 3 yards apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 Are you guys shooting slug or 00 at paper IPSC targets, or bird on 6 steel plates ? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 Yesterday at Gunruner's 3-Gun match, we shot a shotgun El Prez-like stage, but at 50 yards (we also did it with rifle at 100 yards). http://www.orpci.com/mb3g%200504.8.htm The best results were: Open 47 pts 0 pen time = 21.73 sec HF = 2.1629 Limited 44 pts 10 pen time = 27.94 sec HF = 1.2169 Tactical 47 pts 0 pen time = 28.27 sec HF = 1.6625 My score was 46 pts, 10 pen (miss!), time = 105.10, HF = 0.3425 This was the stage where my shotgun crapped out at least four times. Had it run properly, I think my time would have been about 40 seconds and I I'll go ahead an blame the mike on the malfunctions too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickster Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 I am so discouraged I'm going to go off and sulk somewhere. Last nite I set up 6 small poppers at 10 yards set 1 yard apart. Starting with 5 in the gun held at European Ready (butt touching belt, gun parallel to ground, as opposed to Low Ready or Rhodesian Ready). At the buzzer: .65 .29 .24 .27 1.44 reload & shot .29 ------- 3.18 total time And this was my best out of 5 tries. Kurt, Benny, et al. You are putting me into an emotional dumpster with your 2.4's. Soon as I get over it I'm gonna go out and practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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