Should I or shouldn't I?

[gmantwo]

At the COPS match on the first of November(my anniversary too), I aquired my first(and last) DQ. 4 targets from the end of my final stage(and all in all shooting my best match ever) I apparently crossed the 180. I finished the course of fire and was then told by the RO what I had done and so was DQ'd. I've no problem with that, he says I did, so I'm done. But when the final scores were posted, all my scores had been zeroed, something I didn't think was right, but didn't have a rule book with me. I asked the MD about it and was told that, yes, my scores should be removed. Upon getting back home I looked up the rules on DQ's and find rule 10.3.3 clearly says that a competitors scores NOT be removed from the final results.

My question is, would you let the MD and CRO know that it was incorrect to do so? Not to be "right", but so that it doesn't happen to another competitor.

[JThompson]

At the COPS match on the first of November(my anniversary too), I aquired my first(and last) DQ. 4 targets from the end of my final stage(and all in all shooting my best match ever) I apparently crossed the 180. I finished the course of fire and was then told by the RO what I had done and so was DQ'd. I've no problem with that, he says I did, so I'm done. But when the final scores were posted, all my scores had been zeroed, something I didn't think was right, but didn't have a rule book with me. I asked the MD about it and was told that, yes, my scores should be removed. Upon getting back home I looked up the rules on DQ's and find rule 10.3.3 clearly says that a competitors scores NOT be removed from the final results.

My question is, would you let the MD and CRO know that it was incorrect to do so? Not to be "right", but so that it doesn't happen to another competitor.

They were right... you don't get a score, but you stay in the database as a competitor.

Basically, what you are referring to in the rules is there to give you time to arb it. If you don't arb you get a 0/DQ for the entire match. Once DQ the only way to have your scores posted in the final results, is to win an arb.

Edited December 3, 2009 by JThompson

[ChuckS]

10.3.3 Scores for a competitor who has received a match disqualification must

not be deleted from match results, and match results must not be

declared final by the Match Director, until the time limit prescribed in

Rule 11.3.1 has passed, provided no appeal to arbitration on any matter

has been submitted to the Range Master (or his delegate).

11.3.1 Time Limit for Arbitration Request – Written requests for arbitration

must be submitted to the Range Master within one hour of the disputed

incident or occurrence. Failure to present the required documentation

within the time specified will render the request invalid and no further

action will be taken.

Sorry, but I think the staff was OK here.

[gmantwo]

You read correctly. NOT BE DELETED is modified by what comes after it. I overlooked the remainder of the rule.

To edit, I do see where you are correct. My scores were deleted on the initial posting of the results, when the appeal time started. If they had left my scores in until the arbitration time was over, then to remove them would be ok. Thanks

Edited again to agree, lol.

Edited December 3, 2009 by gmantwo

[Sarge]

You read it differently than I. NOT BE DELETED is not modified by anything that comes after it, it only goes into arbitration time limits. Nothing says the scores SHOULD be deleted at any time, before or after the time limits.

[JThompson]

You read it differently than I. NOT BE DELETED is not modified by anything that comes after it, it only goes into arbitration time limits. Nothing says the scores SHOULD be deleted at any time, before or after the time limits.

To edit, I do see where you might be correct. My scores were deleted on the initial posting of the results, when the appeal time started. If they had left my scores in until the arbitration time was over, then to remove them would be ok. Thanks

It's modified by the word "Until."

[Will Abrahams]

So by "not be deleted" it seems like they mean "keep the competitor on the results." but it doesnt say anything about whether scores should be zeroed?

is there another rule that says to zero all stages?

Edited December 3, 2009 by Will Abrahams

[JThompson]

So by "not be deleted" it seems like they mean "keep the competitor on the results." but it doesnt say anything about whether scores should be zeroed?

is there another rule that says to zero all stages?

No, it says "deleted" Basically, what you have is the results shall not be deleted until the time period is expired.

[Will Abrahams]

i guess it a bit more tricky than i originally thought. I was thinking the "until the time limit has passed" phrase was referring to declaring the final match results. hmmmmmm

on second thought i seeing what you are saying i didnt see the "and" so..... i agree with JThompson

Edited December 3, 2009 by Will Abrahams

[Flexmoney]

Ahhh...

I think the point is that the data stays in the scoring program file. (in case an arb is filed and the DQ is overturned).

What seems to be the issue here is the DQ'ed shooter wanting to see how they did...other than the DQ?

That shouldn't be a factor when posting the results.

[gmantwo]

Yes, I would have liked to see where my scores put me. Remember, it was my very last stage of the match and I had my class won, right up until....

I will NOT contact the MD, because they ultiimately were correct, just a little premature. Thanks for everyones input

[JThompson]

Yes, I would have liked to see where my scores put me. Remember, it was my very last stage of the match and I had my class won, right up until....

I will NOT contact the MD, because they ultiimately were correct, just a little premature. Thanks for everyones input

Ya might offer the stats person a case of beer to give you a peek.

[ChuckS]

FWIW, I went into an old match database in EzWinScore and DQ'ed a shooter. The stage points, penalties and times remained but the hit factors for all the stages were zeroed so no match points.

[Flexmoney]

I will NOT contact the MD, because they ultiimately were correct, just a little premature. Thanks for everyones input

I don't know that they were premature at all. They can't post your scores with the others if you have been DQ'ed. If you were to win a stage, then that would throw off all the results. Plus...as you said...you might show up a a class winner, when you really weren't.

The posted results need to reflect the final match scores.

I could be a bit off on this...I'd have to look at the scoring software (it's been a while since I ran stats and had to input a DQ)... but, I think that the proper technique is to pull up the shooter and the stage and then hit the <DQ button>. So, it's not really "deleting" a shooter from the match.

[gmantwo]

But isn't that what the rule says, "not be deleted from match results, and match results must not be

declared final by the Match Director, until the time limit prescribed in Rule 11.3.1 has passed"?

I agree I was incorrect that my results should not ever have been deleted, after that being pointed out. But they also should not have been deleted on the initial posting of the finals. They should have remained until the "official final results" were posted, after the arbitration period had expired.

At this point it's all good discussion, my decision, with all your help, has been made. Thanks again

[Flexmoney]

Deleted is not the same as DQ'ed.

In your opening post you said you stage results "were zeroed."

There is a button in the scoring software to delete a shooter from a match. That button doesn't "zero" the scores...it removes them completely, IIRC.

The stats crew should have...and likely did(?)...use the <DQ button>, not the delete button. That would show your scores as "zeroed".

[ChuckS]

Deleted is not the same as DQ'ed.

In your opening post you said you stage results "were zeroed."

There is a button in the scoring software to delete a shooter from a match. That button doesn't "zero" the scores...it removes them completely, IIRC.

The stats crew should have...and likely did(?)...use the <DQ button>, not the delete button. That would show your scores as "zeroed".

As I sort of explained in post 13 , there is a disqualification menu item in EzWinScore that brings up the list of competitors. You select the name you want and change a pull down for DQ from No to Yes. What I saw last night when I did the experiment, the stage points times and penalties remain in the data base but the hit factor is zeroed for all the stages. Therefore you get no match points. If the match staff did it this way, you should still be able to see the raw scores for each stage and do the math. I took a look around for the COPS scores but could not seem to find them posted anywhere to see what they did. Hope this helps.

Later,

Chuck

Edited December 3, 2009 by ChuckS

[wgnoyes]

As an additional mostly unrelated item for future reference.

In a 3-gun Tournament (not a multigun match, but 3-gun Tournament made of of separate rifle, pistol, and shotgun matches), let's say that you finished all your rifle stages and shotgun stages. That is, you completed the rifle match and shotgun match. Then you DQ on a pistol stage. You are DQ'ed out of the pistol match component of the tournament, but your rifle and shotgun match scores stand because you already completed those component events, and you will be listed in the final Aggregate Results, albeit with a poor overall finish since you dq'ed/zero'ed one third of the entire tournament.

And (further consideration), say this tournament is a multi-day event. On the first day, you shoot some rifle stages, pistol stages, and shotgun stages, but in the early afternoon you DQ on a pistol stage. First, you're done shooting FOR THE DAY. Second, you're DQ'ed out of the pistol match. BUT, you can come back the next day and continue in the rifle and shotgun matches. And if you still had one or two rifle or shotgun stages left in your schedule on the first day before you DQ'ed in pistol, you can try to sweet-talk the MD into letting you make up those stages on the subsequent days of the tournament.

[JThompson]

As an additional mostly unrelated item for future reference.

In a 3-gun Tournament (not a multigun match, but 3-gun Tournament made of of separate rifle, pistol, and shotgun matches), let's say that you finished all your rifle stages and shotgun stages. That is, you completed the rifle match and shotgun match. Then you DQ on a pistol stage. You are DQ'ed out of the pistol match component of the tournament, but your rifle and shotgun match scores stand because you already completed those component events, and you will be listed in the final Aggregate Results, albeit with a poor overall finish since you dq'ed/zero'ed one third of the entire tournament.

And (further consideration), say this tournament is a multi-day event. On the first day, you shoot some rifle stages, pistol stages, and shotgun stages, but in the early afternoon you DQ on a pistol stage. First, you're done shooting FOR THE DAY. Second, you're DQ'ed out of the pistol match. BUT, you can come back the next day and continue in the rifle and shotgun matches. And if you still had one or two rifle or shotgun stages left in your schedule on the first day before you DQ'ed in pistol, you can try to sweet-talk the MD into letting you make up those stages on the subsequent days of the tournament.

I didn't know that about multigun...

JT

[Nik Habicht]

As an additional mostly unrelated item for future reference.

In a 3-gun Tournament (not a multigun match, but 3-gun Tournament made of of separate rifle, pistol, and shotgun matches), let's say that you finished all your rifle stages and shotgun stages. That is, you completed the rifle match and shotgun match. Then you DQ on a pistol stage. You are DQ'ed out of the pistol match component of the tournament, but your rifle and shotgun match scores stand because you already completed those component events, and you will be listed in the final Aggregate Results, albeit with a poor overall finish since you dq'ed/zero'ed one third of the entire tournament.

And (further consideration), say this tournament is a multi-day event. On the first day, you shoot some rifle stages, pistol stages, and shotgun stages, but in the early afternoon you DQ on a pistol stage. First, you're done shooting FOR THE DAY. Second, you're DQ'ed out of the pistol match. BUT, you can come back the next day and continue in the rifle and shotgun matches. And if you still had one or two rifle or shotgun stages left in your schedule on the first day before you DQ'ed in pistol, you can try to sweet-talk the MD into letting you make up those stages on the subsequent days of the tournament.

I didn't know that about multigun...

JT

That's because it doesn't apply to multi-gun.....

In USPSA Multi-gun = a match where you will use more than one firearm on some/most/all stages.

In USPSA 3-gun tournament = a match consisting of pistol stages, rifle stages, and shotgun stages. The match is scored in the aggregate (P/R/S stage points added together) and separately (There's a rifle match winner, a shotgun match winner, and a pistol match winner.)

[Nik Habicht]

Deleted is not the same as DQ'ed.

In your opening post you said you stage results "were zeroed."

There is a button in the scoring software to delete a shooter from a match. That button doesn't "zero" the scores...it removes them completely, IIRC.

The stats crew should have...and likely did(?)...use the <DQ button>, not the delete button. That would show your scores as "zeroed".

As I sort of explained in post 13 , there is a disqualification menu item in EzWinScore that brings up the list of competitors. You select the name you want and change a pull down for DQ from No to Yes. What I saw last night when I did the experiment, the stage points times and penalties remain in the data base but the hit factor is zeroed for all the stages. Therefore you get no match points. If the match staff did it this way, you should still be able to see the raw scores for each stage and do the math. I took a look around for the COPS scores but could not seem to find them posted anywhere to see what they did. Hope this helps.

Later,

Chuck

At local matches, with scoring occurring at home later, its common for disqualifications to not even be entered into the database --- since at that point even winning an arb wouldn't do any good, as the stages are torn down.....

I have on occasion sent new shooters a copy of results including them for the stages they completed, in an effort to encourage their return. Around here the more experienced shooters who care about seeing how they did prior to the DQ will often grab their scoresheet and start jotting down times and points/penalties, so they can do the math when they get home......

[gmantwo]

Deleted is not the same as DQ'ed.

In your opening post you said you stage results "were zeroed."

There is a button in the scoring software to delete a shooter from a match. That button doesn't "zero" the scores...it removes them completely, IIRC.

The stats crew should have...and likely did(?)...use the <DQ button>, not the delete button. That would show your scores as "zeroed".

As I sort of explained in post 13 , there is a disqualification menu item in EzWinScore that brings up the list of competitors. You select the name you want and change a pull down for DQ from No to Yes. What I saw last night when I did the experiment, the stage points times and penalties remain in the data base but the hit factor is zeroed for all the stages. Therefore you get no match points. If the match staff did it this way, you should still be able to see the raw scores for each stage and do the math. I took a look around for the COPS scores but could not seem to find them posted anywhere to see what they did. Hope this helps.

Later,

Chuck

Yes, my scores were deleted. My name was at the bottom of the results with DQ beside it and all factors, ie., time, points, penalties, were 000. I had all my score sheets up to that point, so I got a rough figure on placement in each stage, but not the final.

[Rotwang]

Yes, my scores were deleted. My name was at the bottom of the results with DQ beside it and all factors, ie., time, points, penalties, were 000. I had all my score sheets up to that point, so I got a rough figure on placement in each stage, but not the final.

Your scores weren't deleted, the fact that you were DQed makes them print out as zeros. If you had only shot half the stages then the stage report for the stages you shot would have a line full of zeroes showing you were DQed and the stages you hadn't shot wouldn't mention you at all.

If the stats guy unDQs you then your hits and time would be on the printout because they stay in the match database. Part of the DQ is that you have no score for the match.

[Ron Ankeny]

Even if you had all of the info from the database you wouldn't be able to figure out your overall placement because the last stage wouldn't be scored.

[ima45dv8]

They should have remained until the "official final results" were posted, after the arbitration period had expired.

Well, maybe not. There is a one-hour bitch-n-gripe period mandated by the rulebook for the posting of preliminary results. This gives the competitors a chance to review their scoresheets and identify any keying errors made by stats before the scores are declared Final.

The one-hour arbitration window related to your DQ starts when the scoresheet is signed. It likely expired long before the prelims were posted.