benos Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 As promised, December's question is fun for everyone.... Whoever comments most appropriately on the below statements (from two Zen masters from two entirely different time periods) will be the winner of anything that I actually ship (Mine or Matt's books, S-G's, or DVDs, up to and including Matt Burkett's yet to be released DVD Vol. 5. What was meant by: "Whoever wants to see a fish sees the water before he sees the fish." And, "A fish doesn't see the water." This should provide hours of fun contemplation for everyone, regardless of experience in movies, shooting, or whatever.... And since I tend to prefer content over source, I don't really care if you identify the sources, but if you did it wouldn't hurt in your bid for the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limitless13 Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Whoever wants to see a fish sees the water before he sees the fish. BodhidharmaBodhidharma is speaking on Buddhism, he is relating Buddha to the fish and the water to the mind. In other words, once one has found Buddha he has forgotten about the mind, which brought them to Buddha. Meditation, and the focus on the mind leads one to the teachings of Buddha. Once Buddha has been found, it is of no use to study the mind, but to study Buddha. If you don't forget about the mind, it will only confuse you. Have you ever tried fishing while focusing on the water after you caught a fish? Didn't think so. "A fish doesn't see the water." No idea who said it. The meaning behind, "A fish doesn't see the water," is similiar to saying a human doesn't see the air. Something may be all around us all the time, but it might not be our main focus of concern. After awhile it becomes something that may be noticed only if we focus on that. Have you ever been so cold you didn't realize it was cold anymore? Or have you ever held someone long enough that you had to look to see if you were still holding them? A fish doesn't see the water, because a fish has no need to see the water. My .02 to these questions. KS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 OK, my interpretation: "Whoever wants to see a fish sees the water before he sees the fish." The fish is whatever you are trying to catch/hunt/grab/learn/understand: it is your actual goal that you're trying to reach. As all of our goals, it is not easily reachable, nor even easily spottable. I'm prone to believe the fish is some sort of knowledge or skill you are trying to acquire, maybe even a state of mind. At first your quest is quite confused, there's lots of water around the fish that can deceive your sight, you can perceive the fish quick movement and approximately locate its position, but you are still seeing water and some sort of black spot without a definitive outline. Then, if you focus your mind on your goal and let your will guide your mind, you'll be able to exclude all what is misleading (the water) and the fish will appear clearly to you. A fish doesn't see the water The goal you are trying to reach is crystal clear, there is no deception around it; it is your mind that interposes whatever can take your attention off your goal (the water), but the goal in itself doesn't know any darkening. To me it's a reminder: your goal is not elusive, you just have to focus your will on what you are really looking for. Finally: even if the two statements were made by different people in different time periods, it looks (to me) like they are the exact complement for each other: I mean, they have a full meaning when they are together, in the same sequence BE presented them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exoninja Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 A fish doesn't see the water To a fish, water is something that has been around him for so long that he has already regard it as part of himself. In shooting, for example, you practice drawing for so long that when you hear the "beep", the draw will happen flawlessly sub-consciously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 With apologies, borrowed from Alfred Joyce Kilmer (1886-1918) If a fish, you would see Seek the water, naturally. We see not air, yet water shows Reverse to what the fishy knows. He lives in water, not in air View the boundry tween here and there. We can not spot, the space we're in The next World is what we see begin. Where we're at, is beyond our ken That is why we study Zen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 "Whever wants to see a fish sees the water before the fish." Duality of perception. An example: When someone points to an object, do you look at the object, or the pointing finger? At some level you need both. Without the finger, you cannot know the direction. Without the object, you miss the essence of the exchange. Also, you must consider information, objects, actions in their environment. A fish lives in water. Do not look for a fish in the branches of a tree. Having considered the fish in its environment, you must then move on to consider it as a fish. What do you need to see, or know, in order to shoot at your best? "The fish does not see the water." Duality of assumption. The fish moves through its natural element, water, (in as much as we can tell) without contemplating water itself. Water just IS. By not seeing the water the fish can move with complete freedom within its physical abilitites. However, in adopting water without contemplation, the fish cannot consider what water is not. What assumptions do we make in our daily lives, concerning what is, and do not consider what those assumptions are not? What erroneous actions, decisions or statements do we make becuase we have not examined our assumptions? What assumptions have you made? Do they aid your search for better shooting, or do they hinder it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 "Whoever wants to see a fish sees the water before he sees the fish." Don't judge a book by it's cover. ----------- "A fish doesn't see the water." Be as one with your enrvironment. ----------- Can I get a set of Ginsu steak knives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 A fish doesn't see the water. A fish accepts what is around him, not having it set limitations but offer new dimensions to his actions. Who ever wants to see a fish must first see the water. The water and fish are as one. One cannot divide the two. Unless you happen to have a quarter stick of tnt and watch the fish come slowly to the top. Boys that's what we call fishin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Thanks for the poem, w45. Laughter transcends language. Can I get a set of Ginsu steak knives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Just remember the wise man who asked," If your mother was sewing maching and your father was a lawnmower, how many donuts would it take to build a dog house." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Sometimes a fish is just a fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 http://www.nps.gov/maca/pphtml/subanimals4.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 http://www.nps.gov/maca/pphtml/subanimals4.html Well I'll be damned... a fish that REALLY doesn't see the water. Don't that beat all? Here's my take on the inzenity: For the first: We come up with goals (nirvana, wanting to shoot exceptionally well, etc.); we imagine a fish. Between us and our goals are impediments, many that are self-imposed and many that aren't; a fish is in water. In order to realize our goals--to see the fish--we must first realize that there are impediments that we must work around and through. We then must work through them-- we must realize that the fish exists in water, then go to the water, and then see the water. If we end up doing everything "right," we just might meet our goals/see the fish. To put it another way: "Whoever wants to see Las Vegas sees all the old billboards along the road to Las Vegas before he sees Las Vegas." Um, yeah... that cleared it up. For the second: One who has reached his goal (nirvana, shooting to his potential) no longer sees the impediments as impediments, but rather as necessary to his goal. He must continually work with these aids, but doesn't have to make any effort to do so. In other words: Once you've done the hard work and TRULY achieved your goal, you can focus on simply existing (or shooting-- you no longer worry about consistency or the fundamentals or x or y or z, etc.). That was a nice break from the take-home Philosophy final exam that I'm working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 You have to know were it is to see it.#1 It does not need to see were it is to know were it is.#2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 That phrase actually came from a book entitled "The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma" As far as the fish not seeing water, you can compare that to a human not seeing the air. Air has always and will always be there (physical enviornment) So a fish thinks about water as much as we do about taking our next breath. We take a given as just that, a given, so we can focus our energy on more pressing issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 ~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~ A fish out of water, a meal. A gun, you see, is just as real As the rain when it's falling. A plane when it's stalling Falls pondward, like fish--Oh! Big deal! ~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~ PS--I vote for Wide45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray S. Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 1) "Whoever wants to see a fish sees the water before he sees the fish." And, 2) "A fish doesn't see the water." OK, got to be a Zen thing, so here goes nothing. 1) If I want to see a fish, I must first find/see the water--likewise, if I want to find enlightenment, I must first see my mind. 2) Lacking a soul, or the ability to reason or think, the fish lives out its life in an "other-ated state, only aware of external forces and stimuli, reacting rather than acting, forever oblivious to fact that the water is what sustains him and is most important to him. Likewise, to find/attain enlightenment I must become aware of my soul (mind?) at which time I will have removed myself from the hyper-vigilent existance and the "other-ation" of external desires and fears. P.s. Spelling not right, but also insemis mamiento. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 http://www.nps.gov/maca/pphtml/subanimals4.html You know funny. (What movie's that from? I'm sensing a sub-contest. ) But only if you consider seeing as done with the eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I just wanted to throw another fish on the barbie.. a quote I heard years ago in the programming industry that goes well with the first two and has been kicking around in my brain all weekend.. "Fish discover water last" That usually referred to if you've been soaking in something for a long time, it becomes 'normal' and you ignore it. Somebody else comes in, steps in the big metaphorical puddle and says 'what the heck is this?!?'. This is where change and progress come from, although it can be hard to convince the fish that something new is better for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cr10x Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 "Whoever wants to see a fish sees the water before he sees the fish." And, "A fish doesn't see the water." Interesting quotes Master. My personal pursuits have taken me from the realm of action shooting to the realm of precision shooting, however the target remains the same. It is only a record of where the bullet was directed at that time. A moment captured by a hole with nothing in it, but reality around it. I have only been skimming the surface of the site lately, but these questions attract me like the moth to the candle's flame. This unenlighened one feels that the first quote seems to be striving to illustrate that a concept such as "the fish" can be constructed only after the mind, in this case "water" is available for it. The simple extension in context is one can have "water" without a fish, but to have a "fish" one needs the water to place it in. The universe of our mind, reality and perceptions, are the water necessary to hold the concepts, the fish, that we seek to understand. The "fish doesn't see the water' reminds the student that one's perceptions of reality may not be complete and therefore perceptions should be examined closley. Some perceptions may be so invisible that we do not recognize they are there, warping our view of reality. I will sit quietly and listen for the sound of nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 RIght. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDavis11 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 This is in reference to shooting steel... sometimes you shoot at them but you see the air first, diffracting the ACTUAL location of the steel target. This is why I sometimes miss steel. And ofcourse the steel does not see the air or the bullet and so it does not know that it should fall over despite my shooting at it...it has no fear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixote Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 You know funny. (What movie's that from? I'm sensing a sub-contest. ) The Sunshine Boys Walter Matthau and George Burns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 "Whoever wants to see a fish sees the water before he sees the fish." And, "A fish doesn't see the water." [Half-assed made up Zen mode] Wanting to see the fish gets in the way of just seeing the fish. The water is want. A fish does not want. It just is. [/hamuzm] -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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