Duane Thomas Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 This discussion between ryucasta and myself in the Glock forum suddenly became of more than passing interest to the IDPA forum as well. ryucast said:If memory serves me correctly first generation Glock guide rods were made of Steel. Duane Thomas said:No. There were made of polymer, and actually didn't feature the "cap" that turns them into a captured unit. ryucasta said:In Peter Kasler's book "Glock: The New Wave In Combat Handguns" published in 1992 it mentions and shows a picture of the original STEEL un-captured guide rod. Once I find my copy of the book I will scan the relevant page for your perusal. BTW, I actually do own a first generation G17 (Never Modified) that was purchased NIB back in 87 (Kept at one of my homes in Florida) that has the OEM un-captured steel guide rod. Duane Thomas said:Well, I just learned something new. This is important information. If this is true - and apparently it is - it would mean that steel guide rods are legal in Glocks in IDPA Stock Service Pistol division. Heretofore the "no guide rods made of a material different from the factory unit in SSP" rule had kept the polymer guide rod in my G17 and G34. I would assume that if steel guide rods have actually been supplied by Glock as factory standard parts, that means you could switch to a steel aftermarket guide rod and still be legal, as long as it approximates the OEM part. Thanks for the info, Raul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I'd be curious to hear this confirmed from several different sources. While not a Glock historian, I have handled several early G17's and all had uncaptured plastic guide rods. Assuming it is correct, would it apply to the G17 only? Since this is the only Glock (excluding the sub compacts) that possibly came from the factory with a steel guide rod. Or would all Glocks that use the recoil assembly be fair game (34, 35, etc)? Would the G19 and G23 be fair game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Good questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 While not a Glock historian, I have handled several early G17's and all had uncaptured plastic guide rods. Me, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumpy McSoo Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Has anyone called Robert or the other rule book guys at IDPA HQ? This would be interesting to me as well. Off topic a little, Duane, I have seen your posts for Glocks and 1911s. Do you carry both? PM me if this is off topic. I read that you use the NY Trigger spring in your carry gun. Just curious if you carried 1911s as well. Seems that you have a love for the Wilson magazines in your 1911. Back to the topic of Stainless Steel guide rods, this could really be interesting but I also could see IDPA HQ say that unless you have one of those early models that came with it, plastic it is. Shoot a Gen 1 with SS Guide rod? No thanks, I like my finger grooves. I wouldn't hold your breath if you have a box of SS rods in your desk. The "gaming" or failure to do right overarching rule in my mind would rule out SS rods since for many years now they have been plastic. Also, were those SS rods on prototypes or the actual mass production guns. If mass produced, then maybe. Later, Lumpy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Lumpy - I strongly suspect you are right. Even if a few early 17's had steel guide rods (which is far from confirmed at this point) IDPA HQ is likely to defer to the current answer (which has been working fine). Duane - Please keep us updated. Thanks! Koski Edited November 16, 2009 by Steve Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Lumpy, Orrrrrrr....you could PM me if it's off-topic. Anyway.... I love 1911s and Glocks. I've carried both designs for years. I actually use the original New York Trigger (black plastic/spring steel insert) in my carry guns rather than the later NY-1 (OD green plastic/coil spring) that replaced it because, in my experience, I get slightly lighter and smoother trigger pulls with the earlier design. The Wilson magazines are fairly awesome. Okay, back on topic. IDPA's attitude toward parts replacement on SSP Glocks has always been that you can install a part on a gun if it's ever been installed by the Glock factory on any gun produced by them. For instance we can put Glock extended slide stops on G17s/22s/19s/23s/26s/27s/etc. because they're supplied by Glock on their competition oriented guns. This was the case even before Glock actually released small runs of the smaller guns with the extended slide stop. Internally we can use parts to enhance reliability and trigger pulls even if they're not from Glock, i.e. we can use a Lone Wolf connector instead of a Glock connector if we want. Following that logic, it would seem that we could install an aftermarket steel guide rod in any IDPA legal Glock that uses a part of the same length and diameter as the Model 17, in other words the 17, 20, 21, 22, 31, 34, 35, 37 and any SF or RTF variants thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Email sent to Robert Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager1147 Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I'm a fan of the current rule........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Duane, would't the "if it's ever been installed by the factory" logic regardless of model allow steel and/or compound guide rods on all Glocks in SSP, since the factory installs them on the sub-compacts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 I like the way you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 It also occurs to me, now that you mention it, that the new Glock 22 RTF, due out next year will, or so I've been told, feature a steel/compound recoil spring guide rod system. The days of the "no steel guide rods in SSP Glocks" rule may be numbered for several different reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 That would be wild. Any idea why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 You mean any idea why the steel/compound guide rod in the Model 22 RTF? I'd say it's because .40 Glocks with full power factory ammo tend to get beat up pretty fast, much more so than the 9mms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I'll agree with that. I've broken two pins in .40 Glocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detonics Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 All, As it stands for the moment, any steel guide rod in a Glock will place that gun in the ESP category. This will include factory installed models as well. If the Model 22 RTF comes out with a factory steel guide rod we may take another look at this. Robert Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Robert, Thanks for the reply. I have to ask: this will include factory installed models as well. Isn't that in direct violation of the "no material different than factory standard" rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 As it stands for the moment, any steel guide rod in a Glock will place that gun in the ESP category. Probably a good move. It would be kinda like if McDonald's flame cooked the first few burgers, but that is not the Big Mac and Quarter Pounder that has been served to billions and billions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Agreed. A good call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 So, are shooters who buy a Glock with a steel, compound guide rod expected to pull it out and replace it with a polymer part that allows the gun to batter itself more severely? Admittedly, in comparison to the millions of Glocks already out there with polymer guide rods, this is going to be a small issue, but I'm not really sure how violating the "factory parts are okay" provision of the Rule Book in this area is a good call. BTW, if I can believe my sources at the Glock factory in Smyrna, there's no "if" the 22 RTF will have a steel, compound guide rod. It's a done deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Duane, It is unclear if anyone has ever tried to shoot an early G17 with a factory steel guide rod at an IDPA match, or if such a thing exists. Glock isn't selling any G22s with steel guide rods either, so Robert's decision makes a lot of sense. I'm reasonably certain that if Glock comes out with a G22 with a steel guide rod that it'll be allowed in SSP, but that hasn't happened yet. After all, the G22 is the epitome of stock service pistols. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 It is unclear if anyone has ever tried to shoot an early G17 with a factory steel guide rod at an IDPA match, or if such a thing exists. Glock isn't selling any G22s with steel guide rods either, so Robert's decision makes a lot of sense. They have some goofy interpretation in some areas. You can put a slide stop and mag release off of a 34 on any glock but change the frame from one to another is against the rules. The original question is kind of interesting from an interpretation stand point. SSP has the minimum annual production of 2000 units or a total of 20,000 if discontinued. So it could mean 20,000 would have had to have been made with steel guide rods or all 17’s are the same. I don’t see them allowing it either way. If you had a 1911/2011 style pistol built from the ground up and the grip safety never worked (so you didn’t disconnect or disable anything) you would still get DQ’ed. So making things "standard" for all is the goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaels Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 No steel guide rod? What happens if you try to use a g27/g26 in SSP? They only come with a steel guide rod. change the frickin rule and move on. michaels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmcphersn Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Anyone have a copy of the Soldier of Fortune article from 84/85? I remember it but don't have the magazine. Not sure if it would indicate the guide rod material but it's the earliest source of information on the Glock that I can recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Does it matter how many G17s were made with steel guide rods? Does it matter how many people - if any - have ever fired an IDPA match with one? The way I read the rules, and the way IDPA has always interpreted the rules before, is that if Glock has ever put a particular part in a factory gun it's legal in SSP. Period. Not that that particular part has to have been in X number of guns, that has never been a rule, the minimum production number rule only applies to entire guns, a particular brand/model (i.e. Glock 19, SIG P228, etc). Why make an exception in this case? I get it that they don't want people running something like the much-wider-than-stock Wolff steel guide rod that weighs a full ounce (though frankly I can't tell the difference in recoil between firing that versus poymer, if you want to know the truth). Okay fine, make it illegal to have a steel guide rod that's wider than the stock polymer part or the original steel unit - and anyone who thinks a steel guide rod that narrow adds enough weight to make a difference is living in a fantasy world - and move on. My $0.02, for what it's worth - which may be about two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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