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Tips for Fitting the Flat Trigger


Skydiver

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jetofoz> The Pin locations of the Henning Flat Trigger match EXACTLY to the stock trigger. I have taken some pictures of them both on common "shafts" to prove that the pin holes are in the exact same locations. As you can see in the pictures, the only difference is the location of the trigger lever. All of the other dimensions, where the trigger mounts to the frame and where the trigger bar attaches to the trigger is exactly the same. I just wanted to state some facts about this before it started to spiral out of control.

Front View

Trigger_Front.jpg

Back View

Trigger_Back.jpg

Side View

Trigger_Side.jpg

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Awesome work CHA-LEE!

The hole have exactly the same distance between the factory and the new trigger as CHA-LEE proved, BUT it doesn't mean it's in the optimum position.

As mentioned on my previous post, this just solves half of the problem/issue/bug.

If the hole of the trigger bar is moved 0.08" towards the back of the trigger without disturbing the distance to the other hole, this will allow the adjustment of the pre-travel screw further out and pushing the trigger further back without bottoming out the new over-travel design.

This picture provided by CHA-LEE and edited by myself shows where the new hole should be.

Trigger_Side.jpg

The red mark is where the new hole should be and the black lines are the distance, again which should not be altered.

This will then put the trigger bar in the position where it was, before the stock trigger was removed. No disturbance of the trigger bar/plunger/sear = a perfect drop-in trigger!

I guess the repositioning of the trigger bar pin hole is more cost effective than getting sets of new springs. This will also eliminate grinding stuff to make the new trigger work. I just hope Henning is willing to try this out. Version 2 flat trigger perhaps?

People will ask where did I get the number 0.08" and why move the trigger bar hole that much even if I haven't got a hold of the new trigger? Well, ladies and gents, Jeff686 provided that answer on his previous post. (post#4 of this thread) Jeff686 tackled the problem by adding materials at the end of the trigger bar. So, by moving the trigger bar hole that much, not only it will solve his problem of the bar reaching the sear, it also puts the trigger bar in its original position.

I'll add another tip to this thread. The sear arm that is pushed by the trigger bar can be trimmed and thinned to help shorten reset and move the trigger reset back farther. With my stock trigger, the previous owner was very agressive trimming the sear arm. The result was a nice trigger with a short reset. However, with the new Henning trigger, the bar was not long enough to fully trip the sear. The trigger actually bottomed out on the frame before the hammer would fall.

I had two possible solutions. One was to buy and fit a new sear with the untrimmed arm. The other was to increase the reach of the trigger bar.

Luckily, I had a friend with a TIG welder. He is very good and added a bead of metal onto the trigger bar right in the spot where it pushes the sear. I spent a few minutes with a file and stone, and the result is an additional 80/1000" of material, and a new trigger that now trips the sear.

My trigger now is a little forward of veticle, but seems to fit my hand well. If I want to move the trigger back, all I have to do is remove a little more material from the bar.

Maybe if Henning designs a new trigger bar, he could add an adjustable pull length!

It's not spiraling out of control, just my thought about the issue. I also think that repositioning the trigger bar pin hole is an easier solution than grinding, welding, new spring design, etc...

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jetofoz> I think you are missing the point here. Henning made the flat trigger to match the pin locations exactly to the stock trigger in order to keep the angles all the same. If people do a trigger job with the stock trigger to set the trigger depth where they want it (by modifying the sear leg) then it blows everything out of the water. The only way to get everything back to the "Stock" positions/angles is to use a new Sear along with the Flat trigger. Just because YOUR previous trigger job requires that the trigger bar pin hole to be moved back a small amount to make it "Drop In" for your gun does not mean that will work for all guns. Every gun is different and who knows what trigger job has been done on it (even from the factory) before you try to install the flat trigger.

The fact of the matter is that these trigger parts are not like LEGO's. They are not monkey proof and will not simply snap together in a repeatable place on every single gun. Every gun is unique and requires precision fitting of all the trigger parts to one another in order to make it function correctly. If you choose to slap it together and not precision fit the parts to one another, then be prepared to have a less than optimal trigger functionality.

I have said this many times already but will say it again. If you are not confident/capable of performing a trigger job on your pistol then leave it to someone who can. I don't want to sound like a dick when I state this over and over, but this is one fact that you can't skirt around. The Henning Flat Trigger should not be considered “Drop In” as it does require precision fitting to ensure that all of the trigger parts function together correctly.

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^ well said chalee. What works for one gun does not necessarily work for another...as is the case for most things in life. I think the new over travel screw "shaft" idea may not be the solution for everyone but at the very least eliminates one possible issue and cant hurt anyone. Its a start.

Ill take some measurements on how far the screw sticks out the bottom of the spring cap area at its max adjustment as well so we can get a few samples to compare with.

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jetofoz

I'd have no problem optimizing the pin hole positions as long as we are 100% sure this will actually be good in 99% of the guns. Charlie points out something very important which is the fact that if the gun already has a trigger job with the sear leg shortened, then that cannot be the ones we will base all the calculations upon. In such case, the fix would be to weld the sear leg or the end of the trigger bar.

Of course I'd like to achieve a trigger that can accomodate any hammer/sear combinations etc. The problem is the new spring cap system by design has a space limiation and therefore limited rotation/travel. You can grind on the trigger around the 'spring cap' to allow further rear travel and we could possibly remove more material as well.

When we are making the next batch which will be very soon because I'm almost out... I can experiment with a different hole position. The only way to know how that will work out is to try it. It will also put the trigger further forward for all those triggers that use a non-modified sear. It's almost important that the trigger works with the factory hammer and sear. So kind all this in mind.

Any further input and thoughts are very much appreciated. Just keep in mind that there are many factors to consider and I will of course try to make a trigger that works for as many different setups as possible.

During our next batch, we will also make the length adjustable trigger.

;-)

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Hey Charlie,

Reading your older posts about the OT screw. Are we agreeing the screw should look something like this...

post-3780-1259874362_thumb.jpg

If so.. try to give me an idea of what you think the threaded length should be, the length of the shaft and the tapered portion's length. I'll do some measurements of my own, but that will really help me confirm my numbers and stop pondering and wondering.. ;-)

Edited by sinnsyk
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I am just giving some input about the issue. Have a coke and a smile :)

I agree that we cannot base the design of the new trigger with altered sear. We are on the same page here.

What I am pointing out here has got nothing to do with the sear. (My prepped EGW sear IS NOT altered) It's the position of the trigger bar with or without the sear housing.

The optimized location/angle of the trigger bar pin hole is where the trigger bar sits when installed without adjusting the pre-travel screw. It should match the trigger bar location of the stock trigger installed with adjusted pre-travel screw against a stock sear. Now this is an option if you want to base it on a factory stock sear or an EGW prepped sear. I would suggest that its based on the latter.

As Henning mentioned, the only way to find out is to try.

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Yeah I think that screw design is pretty close to ideal. The OD of the shaft portion should be as close to the ID of the return spring (similar to guide rod/recoil spring fit) to avoid any spring binding or bending and the taper of the shaft should be sufficient enough as to not get caught on one of the lower coils under compression.

Ill be taking measurements over the weekend of suggested lengths of the threaded portion and shaft portion.

Hey Charlie,

Reading your older posts about the OT screw. Are we agreeing the screw should look something like this...

post-3780-1259874362_thumb.jpg

If so.. try to give me an idea of what you think the threaded length should be, the length of the shaft and the tapered portion's length. I'll do some measurements of my own, but that will really help me confirm my numbers and stop pondering and wondering.. ;-)

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Darthmuffin> please report back after live fire. Thats were I ran into failure to resets even though it performed flawlessly in dryfire. I know theres a sweet spot in there somewhere.

I got to test the gun out today. Put about 50 rounds through and it reset just fine every time.

The trigger return spring is definitely binding on the overtravel screw threads, you can feel it on mine. I'll have to see what I can find to line it with or adjust it.

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I've come to the conclusion that the filure to reset/binding problem in my gun (Stock 10mm) is that the factory plunder spring is way too strong for the Henning trigger/Egw sear/Hammer combo. If you relieve some of the pressure by pressing it down a little, you'll find that the trigger bow will easily reset and that the mechanism will be as smooth as can be. So I decided to try cutting off a coil or two off the spring. As the plunger spring is pinned in and the coils are so tight, I had to use a cutting disc on it. Even then it was an awkward diagional cut AND I wasn't able to remove the portion I cut off. I actually cut off 1 1/2 coils, but due to the fact that I couldn't get the excess piece out, the effective shorting was somewhat less. The result is that I do get more reliable resetting now, but the action is still a bit bindy when the gun is not cocked. I think, I might cut off another coil and see what happens.

If someone ;p could make an adjustable plunger....... Here is my rendering of what it could look like.

witnessplungerkjshum.jpg

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That's a neat idea. I had some sample spings made for the plunger and I use it in my gun. They are just as long, but lighter than the factory so you don't have to cut coils. I've asked to get these springs made up and I will make them available as soon as I get them.

The plunger is an important part of the trigger system and I'll look into an improvement for it. I'm in Sweden today, but driving back to Norway in a few hours and flying home to Denver tomorrow. As soon as I get back I'll be back on the project.

I don't remember if this was covered in this thread, but I installed a trigger on Saturday where I had to narrow the trigger bar "loop" that sits into the trigger. It didn't feel like it was binding but it was too big and caused the trigger bar not to sit straight in the trigger. It caused reset issues. Oncei it was moving freely, the trigger worked 100%.

We've taking out quite a bit of material to allow for a variation of trigger bars, but got to a point where modiying the trigger bar is easier than trying to make a trigger that accomodates for the inconsistent factory trigger bars. It's amazing to see how these things can vary that much. I've installed my triggers in Tanfoglios that range from 2009 models to 1995 and the parts are not the same. Not huge differences, but trigger bars and plungers have minor differences.

We will make our own bar and plunger.

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As the plunger spring is pinned in and the coils are so tight, I had to use a cutting disc on it. Even then it was an awkward diagional cut AND I wasn't able to remove the portion I cut off. I actually cut off 1 1/2 coils, but due to the fact that I couldn't get the excess piece out, the effective shorting was somewhat less.

Are you sure it's pinned in? It should be a small rounded metal dowel/pin that locks everything together, but sits loosely in the post. See parts 3.8 through 3.10 on this diagram:

http://www.tanfo11.com/limcusHC.pdf

Beware the high risk of losing parts when disassembling the plunger, particularly part 3.10.

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As yes, the pin was 'persuaded' out of its channel! I cut off another 1 coil, but I can't detect much difference and am reluctant to cut any more off just in case.

If there only was a way to reduce the friction between the shoe/plunger head and the trigger bow.

As the plunger spring is pinned in and the coils are so tight, I had to use a cutting disc on it. Even then it was an awkward diagional cut AND I wasn't able to remove the portion I cut off. I actually cut off 1 1/2 coils, but due to the fact that I couldn't get the excess piece out, the effective shorting was somewhat less.

Are you sure it's pinned in? It should be a small rounded metal dowel/pin that locks everything together, but sits loosely in the post. See parts 3.8 through 3.10 on this diagram:

http://www.tanfo11.com/limcusHC.pdf

Beware the high risk of losing parts when disassembling the plunger, particularly part 3.10.

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If there only was a way to reduce the friction between the shoe/plunger head and the trigger bow.

Have you tried a glob of trigger slick on top of the plunger (slide-glide may help a bit as well), but I found the trigger slick was better for that application.

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Yes, please post your ideas. I've felt for a long time that we could come up with something better than the plunger. Also, the plunger sits in and holds the magrelease button, making it a complete tear down to take the magrelease out. Not sure how easy it would be to make a magrelease that isn't held in by the plunger, but it is possible. Just a matter of putting mental energy into it. I've been pondering making a new trigger plunger, but I honestly don't want to just make the rollerhead. I'm glad you're saying you've thought of something better. Let's have a look and see how we can get it made.

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Thinking outside the box, why does the plunger even need to be the one that is pushing the trigger bar up? Why not something like the 92FS or P-226 where there is a bent piece of wire in the right rear inner surface of the frame that pushes the trigger up? I think that there is enough room in the current design to put in such a "spring". The hard part is figuring out how to mount or secure that spring without drilling or milling.

The the alternative is to go back to the Witness's CZ roots. CZ's use a horseshoe shaped spring to push up on the trigger bar, and that spring is held in place by the "mag catch spring screw".

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One solution;

Redesign the plunger to remove the extra post at the bottom that holds in the magazine release.

Redesign the magazine release to work in a similar fashion to a 1911. ie. a rotating part that slots into the plunger hole to hold the release in place and provide the spring tension.

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Separating the Plunger from interacting with the mag release would be a challenge as they both work together to accomplish different tasks. Sure you could make a separate pin that went down and retained the mag release, but then how the hell do you get it out of that hole the plunger rests in?

The main challenge with the current plunger/trigger bar design is that you have two semi rounded surfaces that rub against each other at inconsistent points as the trigger bar slides across the plunger. If you simply increased the two contact points and made them both flat that would make a huge difference. I can imagine a flat spot under the trigger bar, then a flat head on the plunger where these two surfaces fully touch one another. Then put a small hinge below the flat surface on the plunger head so it can rock back and forth to accommodate for the changing angle of the trigger bar as it moves forward/back and up/down.

Or simply do a roller bearing plunger design like Huening made long ago. But even that would still need a very flat surface on the underside of the trigger bar to be consistent.

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I like the two flat surfaces idea. It would mean that the plunger and the trigger bar would have to be a kit rather than you could upgrade either one. I've got the machine shops working hard on some other projects, but rest assured we will soon improve all of these parts. In the mean time hashing out better ways to do it is time well spent. If I follow my gut feeling on some of these projects they seem to come to out when all the little doubts are removed and a clear plan is formed. Hashing things out in this forum has been and is continually of enormous help. Everyone's input is extremely valuable.

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I like the idea of the two flat surfaces. I used to have one of those tri-glide trigger setups in my SVI and found that the bearing would leave a slight groove on the flat surfaces that it contacted. I'd be worried about the same problem with a bearing-headed plunger.

The flat surfaces would also be easier to machine.

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