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3 Gun Optics


smokshwn

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Erik,

Has John and company increased the brightness of the reticle to be daytime visible similar to a Meopta's level of brightness?

I love USO's stuff but I just can't bring myself to pay those $ for a 3 gun scope w/out visible daytime illumination.

Thanks, Craig

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Craig,

The short answer is no. The illumination is visible on an overcast day, but not on a clear bright day. I talked with John at length about this issue and it would take a complete redesign of the scope body to increase the illumination to the level of say an Aimpoint. It's not that John can't or won't do it, but he needs to see what kind of market he has for this type of scope before he financially commits to redesigning a scope body from the ground up. Hopefully the scope will do well and then I can pretty much have a clean slate to fully design a 3 gun scope from the ground up with all the features competitors would want to see.

I guess I should add that the reticle is in the rear focal plane so the reticle stays the same size throughout the power range. The SN4 series is also a true 1x with a FOV of 116ft.

Erik

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he's compensating for something????????????? :roflol:

i agree with Kurt,....... Erik what was the reason for 3moa over say 2moa??? especially for a rifle that will be used at distance, for me being able to see some target around the dot would be nice. If we use what has been the norm for competition we are looking at roughly 4moa targets, that leaves .5moa around the dot, not much to see.

But hey I'm an old iron sight shooter living in the past so I may not know nuthin' about these here new fangled glass filled tube sights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:

will you have one at Benning???

trapr

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Big center dot and crappy illumination? Another scope that is half-ass suitable for 3-Gun...too bad we are not a big enough market for someone to build a scope that doesn't suck in one way or another :wacko:

Alex

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Big center dot and crappy illumination? Another scope that is half-ass suitable for 3-Gun...too bad we are not a big enough market for someone to build a scope that doesn't suck in one way or another :wacko:

Alex

Erik is trying to do something good here. Let's try to be encouraging shall we?

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Sadly, Alex's comments are,......................Alex's :rolleyes:

Alex, Erik is a really small, almost lilliputin sized guy why don't you go pick on someone your own size!!!! I'm trying to stick up for him cause despite his small stature he is a good guy trying to accomplish good, and besides I gave him his purse!!!!! I can pick on him if I want to.

Trapr

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Aside from not having daytime visible illumination....I really like the reticle Erik designed. I live here in GA and get to practice with him quite a bit.

The 3moa dot actually sounds large but it truly is not as bad as it sounds. What is nice are the thin lines of the stadia tree for good precision without obstruction of the target. The scope also has awesome zeroing target knobs that allow you to dial dope if you choose.

The 3moa dot allows for fast shots inside 100 yards and still offeres good precision out to 300 on an 8" plate. From there on out you go to the stadia tree and it is thin enough to make 400 yard head shots on a USPSA paper target and easily make center A zone hits at 500.

The 3moa dot is very crisp and in all honesty....I think it looks more like 2.5 than 3 but its hard to say.

Aside from illumination....it really is pretty awesome.

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The perfect reticle for me would be the Meopta K-Dot reticle but with only the dot illuminated ,that sayd I would like that reticle in my Zeiss scope :roflol:

I think that would be the perfect scope for ipsc /3gun .

I do also have a ior valdada Pitbull scope here and that reticle comes close the one Erik designed and uses the 3moa as well ,its a very nice and clear scope just a pitty they made it so you could use it only in 1 OR 4 x and not 1-4 x

The ior valdada is visible ill. in daylight but not as bright as my meopta or Zeiss

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Congradulations Erik. I just hope that John and his gang will go forward with the brighter illunination which IMO has a market value in excess of 3 gun shooters. While presently we are all about what works in the middle east, were our armed forces to return to a jungle environment, having full daytime illunination would be a must.

It looks like Elcan's DR Spector 1x/4x is now being followed with a 1.5x/6x. Details are at http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthread...rue#Post1373799 and it is immediately available from SWFA.

Since the power switches from the lower power to the higher power and back again, I can not help but wonder why they did not stay with 1x on the lower end since the 1x on their existing scope is wonderful.

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I'm not an optical engineer but it must be harder than we think because Swarovski seems to be the only ones who have invested the R&D to do it and get it to work at true 1x with variable past 4x.

I'm hoping USO and NF see the bigger picture and make the daytime illuminated reticle sooner than later. Seems like it would be a race for the mfgs to get there first and get as much of the market share as possible to get the biggest return on their investment and to further development. If they build it they will come.

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Craig,

The short answer is no. The illumination is visible on an overcast day, but not on a clear bright day. I talked with John at length about this issue and it would take a complete redesign of the scope body to increase the illumination to the level of say an Aimpoint. It's not that John can't or won't do it, but he needs to see what kind of market he has for this type of scope before he financially commits to redesigning a scope body from the ground up. Hopefully the scope will do well and then I can pretty much have a clean slate to fully design a 3 gun scope from the ground up with all the features competitors would want to see.

I guess I should add that the reticle is in the rear focal plane so the reticle stays the same size throughout the power range. The SN4 series is also a true 1x with a FOV of 116ft.

Erik

Erik,

That's kind of what I figured. I had visited with John and that's the answer I had gotten as well. I wish he would take the plunge as I think the concept would catch on in a big way as soon as the larger optics market realized what we three gunners have figured out. That a true 1x scope that has the FOV of an RDS AND the ability to provide magnification is simply the cat's ass on a carbine.

BTW I like the reticle, very similar to the JPJ1 just inverted for wind. I like that option. I would opt for a 2moa dot though.

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IOR had a 1-8 variable but dropped the line because it wasn't a popular seller.

What's the consensus on the Burris XTR reticle?

post-13561-1257387091_thumb.jpg

The IOR 1-8.....I believe there may have been other issues there. I find it hard to believe it was not popular if in fact it was a true 1x. It was out so briefly....how did they gauge its success?

The XTR reticle......Too much unnecessary clutter. The reticle could be much simpler. 100 times better though now that it has daytime visible illumination.

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The overall concept of the reticle was to come up with something that would be fast at all of the up close and intermediate ranges, but still be able to hit the long range steel without any adjustment. Basically a scope that could go from point blank to 600 yards.

The 3 moa dot is big enough to track during high speed shooting and transitions, but still only covers 6" at 200 yards. Having that size dot also really negates any need for illuminaton. It's very easy to see when running high speed and I actually use the larger outer circle to bracket the A zone on paper targets out to 20 yards. I find it even faster to do that than to center the dot in the A zone. Additionally, its settles on the MGM flash targets very quickly. You basically align the dot inside the circle of the MGM. The human eye will center 2 circles very intuitively. Once you get out to 300 yards it's just the dot and a half circle underneath it. By the time your at 350, you stack the two circles like a figure 8. Once you get out to 400 and your dot starts covering 12" of target, you down to the very fine stadia lines and the size of the dot doesn't matter anymore.

If you've never tried using a circle/dot for an aiming point, I think you're really missing out. I find it immeasureably easier to align 2 circles in some manner rather than fighting to put a crosshair in the center of a circle.

Having a daytime illuminated reticle may be nice, but it's not going to win you a National Title. If you can't hit the target with a black reticle, having an illuminated on is not going to save you.

I will have the scope at the Fort Benning match. Feel free to come check it out...It rocks.

The Burris reticle is cluttered with a bunch of useless junk. If you get rid of 75% of the reticle, you might have something useful.

Erik

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Preach on, Ken :cheers:

1-6, Burris XTR design without the silly left/right and upper bars, and Meopta illumination. Big fat dot...not so much. Lots of crap all around the dot...not so much. I like the design posted earlier (except the fat dot)

If Meopta can do decent illumination, why can't everyone else? The "I don't feel like it" answer ensures I don't feel like wasting my money on that brand of scope; easy stuff right there.

Should be fun wandering around SHOT in a few months, on a quest to ask all the decent scope makers to get off top dead center and make a scope that isn't half worthless. Haven't done that in a few years :D

Alex

Edited by Wakal
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I was thinking of getting into optic class, what is a good 3-gun scope? I have really studied this and I want to know what is the consensus as to which one is best?

In your case.....whatever your sponsors give ya.....ya just go shoot it. :P

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