3rd Party Arbitration

[00bullitt]

I know the rule book says I have 1 hour after the score sheet is signed to arbitrate another shooters score as "unrealistic".Or basically just any arbitration. But are there any other circumstances that would allow me to do so? Because how would I know the other shooter's score until after the interims for the day were posted? Heres another question. What if the score sheet does not have a time on it? From what I'm seeing....the only way to arb such would be to decide within that hour that the shooter had an inaccurate score at the time. I would pretty much have to be on the same squad. So if the shooter truly did have an unrealistic time....the other competitors have been severly robbed of points unless they happened to be squadded together and made the arb within the hour.

[Flexmoney]

I'd have to wonder.

In a situation where the "occurrence" isn't noticed until...say, scores are posted...wouldn't that be the time for the hour to start?

[Flexmoney]

Try a look at 9.8.3

[lmccrock]

What if the score sheet does not have a time on it?

I think 9.7.5 is pretty clear if there is NO time recorded.

Is there experience as to what is "unrealistic"? How close does it have to be?

Lee

[00bullitt]

I'd have to wonder.

In a situation where the "occurrence" isn't noticed until...say, scores are posted...wouldn't that be the time for the hour to start?

Those were my thoughts but not the same thoughts of some NROI instructors.

I was kinda hoping to hear about a past instance as sort of a case law type leg to stand on.

[00bullitt]

What if the score sheet does not have a time on it?

I think 9.7.5 is pretty clear if there is NO time recorded.

Is there experience as to what is "unrealistic"? How close does it have to be?

Lee

I'm sorry...I was typing fast as I was on the way to the match and it should have said "time of day".

But we did end up rectifying under 9.7.4 and the competitor reshot the stage. There was mutual consent from the competitor and the signatory RO as to the score most likely being recorded incorrectly.

[wgnoyes]

[Chuck Anderson]

I remember an Area 6 a couple years ago where there was a 32 round field course. Max Michel burned it down in about 18 seconds, but the top time listed was a 12 second run by Angus Hobdell. Angus had already caught it and reported it to stats on his own, should have been 22. Didn't keep him from messing with Dave Olhasso though. I seem to remember Angus called it "purpling the Dave". I think Dave may have been a little hot under the collar when Angus told him he was keeping the time.

[Carlos]

?

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Is there experience as to what is "unrealistic"? How close does it have to be?

Dunno how to define "unrealistic" - though "not humanly possible" comes to mind (still, why set boundries for ourselves?). A scorekeeper writing down an incorrect time or a timer not picking up shots could easily lead to "unrealistic" scores.

[00bullitt]

?

.

Is there experience as to what is "unrealistic"? How close does it have to be?

Dunno how to define "unrealistic" - though "not humanly possible" comes to mind (still, why set boundries for ourselves?). A scorekeeper writing down an incorrect time or a timer not picking up shots could easily lead to "unrealistic" scores.

Its a hard call to make. But in this case....the shooter acknowledged that it was a mistake when it was brought up to him.

This score was not the concern of just one person but about a dozen that had noticed it and brought it up.

But to answer your question...my take on it is this. With knowledge of a shooters ability and based on other comparable stage performances.....does the time flow with or seem possible by the competitor or others of a much higher rank in other divisions. That starts to raise question and lean towards unrealistic in my book.

[vluc]

Unrealistic or not in the realm of possibility? This is one of those "rules" that I just don't understand, short of a blatant error on the part of the scorekeeper.

I've RO'd shooters of a certain level that surprised the crap out of me with how well and fast they ran a particular stage. These are folks I've watched shoot for years. Sometimes, just sometimes, the stars line up right for them and they are stellar.

I'm sure many of us have had that. Heck, I shot Sunday and amazed a few of my fellow RO's, one a GM who has shot with me for years. I was in a zone and surprised even myself. So why have another shooter - disgruntled though they may be - be given the opportunity to dispute a valid run just because they did not feel that I could shoot it that quickly/well or what not?

There have been numerous threads by shooters on here about how they found themselves "in a zone" and shot above their ability for that time. Should they have had their runs disputed by another shooter? We can't talk about ourselves getting into a zone without recognizing that someone else can get in that zone as well.

Edited October 26, 2009 by vluc

[Nik Habicht]

And that's where all of it comes into play: Sometimes shooters find a faster way --- a much faster way. Some years ago, I was asked whether the times of a competitor on my squad at a local match were in fact realistic. Since I'd watched the timer change on the competitor's last shot, I was able to confirm that.

In another instance we had a D-class competitor with physical limitations who shot a prone to start stage faster than everyone else, including J.J. at a local match. That one wasn't caught until scores went up, and the competitor was mortified....

Honestly I don't see these things getting arbed at anything less than a major --- because at most club matches the stages are torn down before scores go up. And at majors, I keep hearing about people walking into stats to correct their score sheets, when there's a favorable keyboard or scribbling error....

I'd think that you could file an arb under 9.8.3. I also think that you'd need a lot of evidence to prevail. I know if I was sitting on the arb committee, I'd want to hear from the competitor who posted the time, other shooters (to see if "how they ran the stage" could have been a factor), from the staff officiating the stage at a minimum....

[Hank Ellis]

A while back while perusing the scores and stages at a local match I found that I had flat burned down a stage. Wow! Won a stage. That's a first for me. However comparing that time to a M class Open shooter who won that stage in his class it was clear that this middle C Production shooter had been the victim of a scoring error. Money was involved and I let the match officials know. Since the match had been over for several hours and everybody had gone home we had problem.

If I recall correctly someone didn't put a 2 in the time making a 8 second run instead of a 28 second run. The resulting HHF and stage points skewed the results. My solution was to recrunch the stage and stage points using the time I know I was capable of. Another shooter was deserving of the money and gave it to him at a later match.

This is all fine and good at a local match but what about the major matches? Tough one to call.

[BrianATL]

Unrealistic or not in the realm of possibility? This is one of those "rules" that I just don't understand, short of a blatant error on the part of the scorekeeper.

I've RO'd shooters of a certain level that surprised the crap out of me with how well and fast they ran a particular stage. These are folks I've watched shoot for years. Sometimes, just sometimes, the stars line up right for them and they are stellar.

I'm sure many of us have had that. Heck, I shot Sunday and amazed a few of my fellow RO's, one a GM who has shot with me for years. I was in a zone and surprised even myself. So why have another shooter - disgruntled though they may be - be given the opportunity to dispute a valid run just because they did not feel that I could shoot it that quickly/well or what not?

There have been numerous threads by shooters on here about how they found themselves "in a zone" and shot above their ability for that time. Should they have had their runs disputed by another shooter? We can't talk about ourselves getting into a zone without recognizing that someone else can get in that zone as well.

+1

And especially if this shooters time was not the fastest time when you take other divisions into account.

[MikeFoley]

OK, how many times has someone who we have never heard of won a stage at Nationals, or ended up in the shootoffs? Performance on one stage is not representative of ability on another. You can look at my major match performances and see top finishes on one, and be DFL on another.

I do agree however, that there must be a way to properly arbitrate third party scoring errors. The trouble is that many times it looks humanly impossible to shoot a stage in a given time, then we see Daniel Horner do it for real, right in front of us.

If a stage is shot by lots of top shooters in 12 seconds, and someone records a 3 second time, then there is obviously a problem, but I wouldn't think those would get past the scorekeeper.

[matt2ace]

What if the score sheet does not have a time on it?

I think 9.7.5 is pretty clear if there is NO time recorded.

Is there experience as to what is "unrealistic"? How close does it have to be?

Lee

I'm sorry...I was typing fast as I was on the way to the match and it should have said "time of day".

But we did end up rectifying under 9.7.4 and the competitor reshot the stage. There was mutual consent from the competitor and the signatory RO as to the score most likely being recorded incorrectly.

The 'missing time' error occured to a shooter at the open Nationals this year. I was talking with him while my squad waited to shoot the stage he had just finished. He had a squib on the stage resulting in many misses scored. When he pulled out his score sheet, we both noticed that there was no time recorded and it was signed by the RO and shooter. I did not know the specific rule, but we both agreed it should be brought to the CROs attention.

The RM was called over and he got a reshoot.

[Flexmoney]

We had one get through at a Major match years ago.

On Mini-mart.

C-class shooter ran it in a 10.9 hit factor. That hit factor is certainly doable. But, this guy never did it. (I shoot with him all the time, and ride to matches with him.)

Any shooter can hook one up on a speed shoot from time to time.

Anybody can make a half-court shot in basketball.

But, most aren't going to beat Michael Jordan in a slam dunk contest.