IDPA classification - rework

[Roadking]

First Gungrats; Lugnut on your master classification!!!

So let me start off by saying to all except those whom are sandbaggers and gamers and you all know who you are or know someone who is the on HIGH IDPA CENTRAL should do something more then lip service to this problem....Maybe fix it!!!!

So you say you can not move up in class because you can not seem to pass the required classification to do so or ????.

How about if IDPA Central comes up with a new way of classification to make sure that sandbagging or gaming is not happing as much as it does...

It is a shame that you go to a match and shoot your true class and the people that beat you constantly at every match nomatter if it is local club sactioned State or other win by not just less point down but many/several seconds every time..

Any Ideas how this can be fixed???

How about if they win more than half the local club or major matches in a 1 or 2 year period they are automattically moved up to the next level....

Can not wait to hear the flack that will come this way....

[lugnut]

Thanks Roadking.

Hmmm. As an example it's no secret that making Master in ESP is more difficult than making master in SSP. That extra 10 secs in the classifier is a lot of work. Many people- myself included will use the same gun in both divisions. I does seem strange that some people kick ass in their class (like MM or SS) and aren't classified higher... since you need to classify at least once a year- unless you are Master already. But people do make big strides quickly sometimes.

I know a bunch of people that are in ESP Expert that are trying to get to Master... it's not easy in the classifier so some will get bumped in a match.

[Classic_jon]

At the postal match here some of the really good shooters were talking about asking if there could be a "grand master" class created. That way people competing against some of "the great names" would have a chance of being in the prizes in different classes.

I thought it was a pretty good ida to include that thought with something to prevent sandbagging...now how to prevent sandbagging...is a very good question.... I know some of the people in my club that are MM or SS class...that can shoot faster and better than their classification shows...

[rvb]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...;hl=grandmaster

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...;hl=grandmaster

2 ways to prevent sandbagging...

1) get rid of classes

2) get rid of them in YOUR mind and just shoot your match. Let the scores fall where they may.

There are no score-based prizes so it's a lot of un-needed stress for nothing more than a trophy.

Adding a GM class will still have all the same issues, just in a different class.

-rvb

Edited October 15, 2009 by rvb

[nwb01]

where is the popcorn...........

[steel1212]

ummm how to address this. There is a big difference between a gamer, somebody that plays IDPA as a game, and a sandbagger, somebody that bags the classifier to stay in a lower class.

With that being said I could have made master in SSP several times now with some of the times I've put up but I don't have a SSP gun nor do I want one. I shoot in ESP and CDP and primarily ESP, and that isn't a easy division to get classed master in.

Also, Like RVB said there is no prize table in IDPA just random draw so all your shooting for is a plaque. If people want to bag just to win a plaque well there isn't a whole lot to be done about it short of doing something that I can't mention here as it would be a this vs that type of thing. I think the classifier is OK but not great. Anyway you change it you will still have sandbaggers no matter what.

If you do like you suggested and change it to if somebody wins a local a few times they get bumped that just won't work. Not all the locals are the same caliber shooters. If that was the case I would have been master a long time ago but I get my butt beat when the masters show up at my local. When baggers show up to majors and there is enough in their class and above they get bumped anyway so you don't get to win to many before your in the next class anyway.

[Chris Christian]

You will never be able to stop someone from deliberately sandbagging the Classifier in order to stay in a particular class. That person is the only one seeing the sights and pulling the trigger and it's impossible to second guess them on that. The automatic Sanctioned Match bump is one way to deal with it. But, it has weak points... especially in the revolver classes where there are just too few shooters to reach the required numbers the Rule Book specifies. Bumping on club matches isn't going to work because the level of competition is inconsistent. Mandating an annual Classifier is tough because not all clubs shoot them that often... even though they are supposed to... and I can think of a number of logical reasons (life, business, work, illness, etc.} that might prevent a shooter from making a once a year Classifier even if they wanted to try and Classify up.

One thought would be to change the Sanctioned Match bump and I would suggest the following - irrespective of the number of shooters in the class/division the shooter is shooting in... if that shooter beats 33% of the shooters in the class/division above him (EX beating MAs for example) he gets the automatic bump. I think that would be fair. If you beat 1/3 of the shooters in the Class above you, you probably belong in that class. One thing I would not advocate is automatically bumping a DC.... unless that shooter beat 1/3 of the shooters above him... or fell into the Rule Book numbers. I've seen Sanctioned matches where the ESR DC was a SS... just because there were no EX or MAs and only a few MMs.

I would also support a GM Class. There are some "professional" shooters out there that dominate the Master Class at major matches, and the poor MA that made his classification by three of four seconds doesn't stand a chance. Just how you determine GM... I'll leave to wiser minds than mine.

Chris Christian

[Steve J]

Even with a system like the one that USPSA uses where each club match has a classifier stages that's sent in and your classification is managed at the national level (whew - mouthfull), you still have sandbaggers and grandbaggers.

Sand-baggers - bag the classifier stage when necessary at the expense of match performance to keep from moving up.

Grand-baggers - if they have access practice the classifier stage or pay to reshoot it, which is also possible in USPSA.

There are both grand-baggers and sand-baggers in IDPA, and I imagine there always will be. Some people have no qualms about being dishonest with themselves and others.

[jar]

I'm just a lowly Sharpshooter (recent match bump from MM), but I just don't see sandbagging as a big problem. What sandbagging isn't taken care of by the match bump rule? You only get to win your class at 3 sanctioned matches before you get to Master. Who cares about sandbaggers winning their division in local matches? I generally look at all the scores in local matches anyway.

I think the arguments for adding a GM class make a lot of sense.

[Duane Thomas]

As amusing as this discussion might be, it's all just wasted air. The standards to make rank, and the number of classes offered, haven't changed in 13 years. They never will. Next question?

[Classic_jon]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...;hl=grandmaster

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...;hl=grandmaster

2 ways to prevent sandbagging...

1) get rid of classes

2) get rid of them in YOUR mind and just shoot your match. Let the scores fall where they may.

There are no score-based prizes so it's a lot of un-needed stress for nothing more than a trophy.

Adding a GM class will still have all the same issues, just in a different class.

-rvb

Good points and thanks for the links

I shoot my match and let the scores fall where they may. Others may not do that...but I do.

Something I am fairly proud of is that I missed SS class by a few seconds in my classifier. If I had hit one of the long shots I probably would have made SS on my first "real" classifier and I have picked up speed since then so

[Chris Christian]

Duane,

Next question? I'm not certain I understand the context in which that remark was made. Obviously Classification standards have changed within the last 13 years... RE: ESR/SSR. As for the discussion being "wasted air".... the Rule Book is currently under review and members have been asked to send their ideas for constructive changes to their Regional Coordinator. A number of members have... and those ideas are being reviewed and evaluated. Some may actually be incorporated into the next edition of the Rule Book. If we simply sit here and say "What has always been shall always be", we then accept the fact that errors made in the past can never be corrected... IDPA shall remain forever static.... and we will live in a perpetual 'Groundhog Day" environment. I don't see that. I think the experiences of the past have (or certainly should have) produced knowledge that will allow IDPA to evolve. Constructive discussion is just a part of that process.

Chris Christian

[CDPMatt]

As for the discussion being "wasted air".... the Rule Book is currently under review and members have been asked to send their ideas for constructive changes to their Regional Coordinator.

Chris, I am MD at a club in AR.... just a couple hours from HQ and have never heard this before nor have I been asked for my ideas or told the rulebook is under review. Where did you receive this info as I'm curious as why I did not.

[rvb]

As for the discussion being "wasted air".... the Rule Book is currently under review and members have been asked to send their ideas for constructive changes to their Regional Coordinator.

Chris, I am MD at a club in AR.... just a couple hours from HQ and have never heard this before nor have I been asked for my ideas or told the rulebook is under review. Where did you receive this info as I'm curious as why I did not.

I've been hearing "skuttlebutt" that this is happening for, oh, 3 or more years now?

-rvb

[Chris Christian]

I heard it from my Regional Coordinator, and it also came up in a phone conversation I had with Robert Ray at IDPA HQ... RE: discussing changes in the Rule Book... and what changes might be incorporated in the new book. There was one specific ruling that Robert and I discussed... which I won't go into now. And, the fact that the Rule Book is under consideration for being reviewed. I submitted a clarification on reloads/cover to my FL RC that he liked and he passed on to IDPA HQ as part of the process. If you have some ideas to make the Rule Book a bit more definitive you might want to discuss it with your RC. The Rule Book has a shelf life to prevent random and frequent rule changes. IDPA says it's about five years. The last new Rule Book became effective on 15 April, 2005. I'm not any kinda math expert, but it seems like five years is approaching.

Chris Christian

[Duane Thomas]

And, the fact that the Rule Book is under consideration for being reviewed.

Is that "It's being reviewed" or "It's being considered to be reviewed"? Big difference there. It will be interesting to see if there's a new Rule Book in 2010, sure enough.

Obviously Classification standards have changed within the last 13 years... RE: ESR/SSR.

Sure, they added ESR in the last Rule Book. But the time standards to make rank in CDP, ESP, SSP and SSR, and the basic Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert and Master class rank structure have never changed. I would be amazed if they ever did. Not to say that couldn't happen, and if it does I'll be first to admit I was wrong.

[Strick]

About 90% or more "topics" on this or any forum has already been discussed and then re-discussed. If the criteria to have a discussion about something is it has to be a completely fresh idea this place would be pretty dead.

Back to the topic though, I don't think the classifier needs changing just the rules on match bumps. I know a guy that has been trying to get his bump to master in CDP all year but hasn't got it even though he has won every match he shot it as an EX, there were not enough people. SS and MM beating the majority of people in their division should get a bump also, even if they didn't win. They might not have won because they had a gun issue or some type of malfunction so now they get to keep shooting in the same class. Tweaking the bump rules would be easy enough and take care of most of the problems, real and perceived.

Oh and I think a GM class is also a great idea

[Duane Thomas]

Maybe I've been doing this too long, but the umpteenth go-round of "Should IDPA have a Grand Master class" does get a bit old after awhile. To the folks who can still enjoy it, hey, have at it.

Beating only a handful of people in local matches, even if you do it again and again all year long, is not grounds for a Master rating, IMO.

[Strick]

Maybe I've been doing this too long, but the umpteenth go-round of "Should IDPA have a Grand Master class" does get a bit old after awhile. To the folks who can still enjoy it, hey, have at it.

Beating only a handful of people in local matches, even if you do it again and again all year long, is not grounds for a Master rating, IMO.

This was in sanctioned state matches.

[Duane Thomas]

Okay, still not buying it. In 2002 I had the match of my life (up til that point, anyway) at the Washington State IDPA Championships. When all was said and done I was state champion in CDP as an Expert class shooter, and I beat the 2nd place (Master class) shooter by 20 seconds. I could honestly say, after that match was over, that while I didn't think I had shot it as well as it could have been shot - I made mistakes, no one ever has a perfect match - I had indeed shot it as well as I could have shot it at that time. I wasn't moved up because there weren't the necessary number of Experts at the match. Should I have been made a Master at that time? No. Maybe I was having a great two days. Maybe everyone else was having a bad two days. In 2005 I was 2nd overall in CDP at both the Washington and Idaho state matches. Again I wasn't moved up because there weren't the necessary number of Experts at either match. Should I have been? No. If I could continue beating a handful of Experts at numerous state matches over the year, should I be moved up then? No. It's just not that hard to do. When I can step up to the line and post a classifier score to the standards set forth in the Rule Book, or go to a major match with a huge number of competitors in my class/divisiion and come out on top, then I'll take the CDP Master rank and feel I've earned it.

[Bones]

It is a shame that you go to a match and shoot your true class and the people that beat you constantly at every match nomatter if it is local club sactioned State or other win by not just less point down but many/several seconds every time..

Any Ideas how this can be fixed???

Yes - preparation and focus.

The only real effect of a GM classification would be 5 more plaques given away at large, sanctioned matches - 1st place Grand Master - to what will most probably be the 2nd place finsher. The best shooter, no matter his or her Classification, is still going to get Division Champion.

I know and shoot with a lot of MA-Class shooters in many Divisions - the overwhelming majority of those are niether industry professionals nor sponsored. None of them really wants to go home with a 1st Place MA plaque (nor a 1st Place GM plaque should a "higher" Classification be created) or values a 4th Place MA plaque any more than not getting one for 5th Place. A 5th place-anything award is a much more potent motivator in MM and SS Classifications than at MA.

Want to get more resolution at the top? Require a MA Classifier time AND a Major match bump for promotion to MA. That will certainly provide more distinction without the need to reestablish/redefine Classifier times and competitors who value them still go home with awards.

Craig

Edited October 16, 2009 by Bones

[ThreeHeadedDog]

This is something I simply dont get.

Two or so years ago when I started I had a very bad classifier(my first) shortly before a sanctioned match. I clasified SS in CDP even though I figured I should/could do better I took it as a sign that maby my ego was greater than my ability. I ended up like 7th overall in CDP (like 2nd SS but beat all the Experts except 1) I didnt do well enough in the SS to advance to EX so I stayed there untill my next classifier. I was constantly being told at the event that I was "sandbagging" or some such, which really just pushed me to do better because I will never understand why people want to fight over a class trophy. I actually stopped shortly after that when the economy tanked and started again reciently. When I look back I dont see that I got 2nd SS I just see that I got 7th and that doenst blow my skirt up at all. I tried my darndest to climb into a higher class and if all goes well on my next classifier I should make MA(I have done so in practice)

I think that anyone who has such self-esteem issues that he needs a plaque for 5th SS or some such has just got to find something more cuddly to do that doesnt have finishing positions. If you are shooting you are either doing it for Practice/Competition/Fun and none of these want a plaque for 5th SS. Anyone who is bragging about winning a CLASS when their are 15 other shooters above him/her needs to reevaluate their priorities. Find a shooter that is comparable to yourself and try your best to beat them. When you do find someone better and try again. Eventually you will be a far better shooter than you started.

[Jim Watson]

Step 1: Shorten the Classifier. There was once a 54 shot CoF devised that was claimed to give the same ranking of shooters as the 90 shots we have now.

Step 2: Require that said Short Classifier be included in every sanctioned match.

Result: Try hard for that plaque and bragging rights and you will shoot your actual classification.

I guess a sandbagger could lay back for a whole season of state and local matches so as to look good at the Nationals, but that would only work once.

[kct45acp]

let me say I suck at the classifier but I shoot extremely well in a match environment.

I have received my current classifications with the exception of ESR through sanctioned match bumps(I bumped myself in ESR at nationals 2 years ago when I won my Div and Class).

When I recently renewed my ESR classification I just barely shot an expert time for the first time ever with that gun, so I can back up my current ranking.

I don't know if I just cant stand still and shoot or if I thrive on the competition aspect of matches but that is where I shoot my best.

[Duane Thomas]

Can not wait to hear the flack that will come this way....

Troll. Closed.