fastarget Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I have been SO in a young IDPA club for a couple of years. We work hard to be friendly to attract shooters, it has been harder this year , but we have a good time. With that said, we try and be a bit easy if someone shows up with an all stainless sig etc that may be a bit over weight limit, so as to not scare away people and once the new shooters read the rule book, they comply on their own. I ran into a shooter at my stage this last weekend, who is experienced, but tries not to comply with anything. Let me explain, glock 35, with huge alum magwell. previous SOs have brought that to his attention but it has stayed on. At my stage, he loaded 12 rds in his first mag so as to avoid a mag change, he claimed it was a mistake or he may have missed a target completely........ok, but then I noticed his barrel was ported also and there was no muzzle rise. I nicely told him ported barrels are outside the rules, but he quickly and excitedly said he bought it so he could use lead ...........I was ready to give him a FTDR but other SOs stepped in and said give him a procedural to keep the peace we dont want to chase members away................... After the shooting was over , I brought this up to the MD, he said yes we should box the gun, chrono and reinstitute FTDR. But in the busy part of tearing stages down, I have a feeling this may have been forgotten. So , I feel I have let down my hard working fellow shooters, who are getting dusted by this guy, blatently. What is my place as an SO of a stage, and how far do you go to keep the peace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 If he's been known to do this and have been warned in the past, do you really want this shooter a part of your membership? What if a few new shooters see his antics and feel they could do the same thing and get away with it? Soon you won't have anybody following the rules. And as you mentioned, is it fair to others to follow the rules and get beatened by this guy? be fair to one oerson or be fair to the rest of the competitors who follow rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Advise problem shooter that he is welcome to shoot however until his equipment is in compliance, it will not be for score. That's how we handle new shooters with problem equipment on their second an subsequent visits. With today's economy, its great that they are still able to shoot but that does not mean they have the dollars to invest in "match legal" equipment. The serious competitors will in time get with the program, especially if they want to shoot a sanctioned match elsewhere. If your friend is "gaming" the matches with his equipment but really enjoys the sport, he may get in compliance when he fails to see his scores posted on a regular basis. Bill (A USPSA shooter and not an IDPA shooter at this time.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastarget Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 racerba, Thanks for the reply. Can I go against my other fellow SOs recommendations? Should I try to find the MD and insist on something done? It is my stage after all, and I have already decided that the rule book is king from now on, but how to convince the rest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Just an idea. Take his money and let him shoot for NO SCORE until he's in compliance. Not seeing his name up there "might" work. Or it's just a tactful way to say SEE YA. Jim Edited October 13, 2009 by Jman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Thanks for the reply. Can I go against my other fellow SOs recommendations? Should I try to find the MD and insist on something done? It is my stage after all, and I have already decided that the rule book is king from now on, but how to convince the rest? I would go against the other SOs. Convincing others should not be a problem if they believe in the rule book. Next match, use the rule book and inform the MD of teh situation so it's not a surprise to him when said competitor throws a fit. If not, I'd show up at the next match with a full blown open gun and race gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bell Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Give him the score that he earned, procedurals and all. Make up a division called "other" and put him in it separate from the shooters in compliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Make a note on the competitor's scoresheet the first time. If it happens again, the shooter gets moved to "shooting for fun" on the scoring finals. Once more and no score is posted. He can pay and play to shoot for fun- but he isn't competing legally, so he shouldn't have his scores posted as a competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vigilante Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Or you could just refer him to the local USPSA matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gb32 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I can understand the idea of not wanting to drive shooters away. However, by letting this individual shoot for score you are in effect penalizing the rest of the competitors. If he's not shooting for score, then I guess that's ok. If he is however, we've got a problem. I'm not saying rake the guy over the coals in front of the squad, but this kind of behavior makes a mockery of the rules. Then when these guys go to a major and get corrected they are bewildered. Conversation from the 2008 S&W Indoor Nationals, during a equipment check: Me- "Sir, you're going to need to move that holster back. Middle of the trigger no farther forward than your centerline" Shooter- "But my belt loop is in the way." Me- "Sir, your pants are not my problem. I'm sure we can round up a knife for you." Shooter- "Well, I guess I'll move it then." Me- "Outstanding. If you'll come with me to the safe area, we'll get you squared away." I understand moving a holster is not the same as having a gun that's far outside the rules. Sounds to me like this guy is exploiting the system. Respectfully, Gary Byerly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 If he is using gear that isn't IDPA legal, and he knows it, I.E. has been informed several times of it, inform him he can shoot but the score will not show in the results as he will be DQed for illegal equipment. Trying to keep shooters is one thing, being fair to the other shooters that are following the rules is another ball game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastarget Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great suggestions, I appreciate that very much.......... Flatland, I kind of like your suggestion and the suggestions of the rest of the gents regarding allowing people to shoot and enjoy it for no score, it will keep the club going with some financial infusion and keep it fair for the rest of the SSP shooters as well as ESP. We are the only local pistol shooting club other than cowboy action. There maybe USPSA or IPSC 60 miles away, but I never hear anything about their activity. I will relay these suggestions to the MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pittbug Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I agree with the comments others have made, let him shoot for no score. It's just not fair to the other competitors. There was a similar thread a couple of months ago and I think the poster said he decided to talk to all the SOs and regroup to bring the club up to par with the rules. There isn't an "other" category according to the rulebook, so it would be a little hypocritical to make up a division when you're judging his equipment based on IDPA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Your fellow SO's want to let this fellow slide on the rules so as not to chase him off. That's the wrong way to look at the situation. Okay, you let him stay and shoot with an illegal gun and gear. Another shooter or two or... decide they have had enough of getting beaten by this dude and leave. You still have the moron but lost a shooter or two that were not causing any problems. You still have the problem child. Let's say the aformentioned rules following shooter(s) do decide to stay but show up with illegal equipment. They decided to even the playing field a bit. Now your number of illegal shooters has grown to two or more. Your problem just got bigger and could grow larger as other shooters get irked about the whole mess and either walk or start showing up with illegal equipment. My humble opinion is to introduce the fellow to the rule book and NOT let him shoot unless his gun and equipment comply with the rule book. Isn't that how your matches are supposed to be run? Adios, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Fastarget, I had THE EXACT same shooter attend matches years ago. Believe me when I tell you that if you offend this shooter and drive him away, you have lost nothing. The previous posters have given plenty of good suggestions. Take your pick, but don't worry too much about it. Tell him off if you have to. He knows better. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Kill him with kindness. ie. "Sir your equipment is not legal for IDPA, so you can shoot it, but I can not give you a score if you want to use non-complaint equipment. I do have legal equipment that you can use if you want to shoot for a score." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastarget Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 That is beautiful, I will be happy to lend him my gun ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dand38s Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Here is a quote from the NROI Range Officers Creed. I will thoroughly familiarize myself with all current regulations, match rules and attendant subjects.I will be firm and fair in all judgmental calls made during the course of a stage, and be prepared to state in a clear and concise manner my reasons for such calls to the particular competitor or any Range Official. I have not checked but am pretty sure that IDPA has something similar. Since this competitor has been warned repeatedly about his equipment it would be hard for him to say that he did not know. It seems that he believes that he is above the rules or that he will break them any way he wants since he has learned that there are no consequences. Other people will either follow his example or they will just go elsewhere to shoot since they do not see this club as taking the rules seriously in order to provide a fair playing field. Before the next match starts I would go to the MD and tell him of your intentions in this matter that way he is already aware when things develop. Maybe print this thread out and let him read it so he understands part of what your thoughts are based on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 We will let shooters use non-compliant gear for a match or two, and will then still allow it occasionally. If a shooter has a carry gun that's not legal, I'm not above letting him get some trigger time with it at a match, but not for score, and not on a regular basis. A new shooter who shows up for his first match had better have something legal by the third match. I'm going to shoot a 44-and-a-half ounce, hi-cap .45 that won't fit in the box, at next weekend's match, but it's not for score, and I won't do it again any time soon. I agree that you risk chasing away shooters who expect to get a fair match, when you accommodate a shooter who doesn't follow the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Why not just bump him to "Outlaw" division? That is what I sign up for when I use my normal USPSA Limited gear when I shoot an IDPA match. If his gun does not adhere to the rule limitations of the IDPA divisions then he should be shooting Outlaw, or not for score in the normal divisions. If he is in Outlaw division then it does not matter what shenanigans he pulls during the match, he will probably be the only one shooting that division anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Since no one posted the IDPA rules, the first TWO rules in the rulebook addresses this: C 1. Competitors will not attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques. This is the Failure To Do Right rule. C 2. Competitors will refrain from unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the opinion of the match director, tends to make a travesty of IDPA. Repeated offenses reported to the AC or HQ can result in having membership revoked. I still vote for the approach of giving a shooter the option of complying with the rules and a way to do so (I generally bring extra gear and ammo just in case a shooter shows up unprepared/equipped) and then they can make the choice of shooting for score, shooting for fun, or going home. If the MD doesn't stand behind you then, time to stop SO'ing, you don't get paid enough to help someone who doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 You either have rules and therefore a sanctioned match or you have a bunch of folks shooting for the hell of it. It is just as easy to offer a brand-new shooter compliant gear as the guy that is on his 3rd match. B as in B and S as in S to letting people break the rules because they are new. Do you want the Cops to give that 16 year old a warning for going a 110mph and being drunk because he just got his license and you don't want to put him off driving? Bottom line--Enforce all rules all the time. To do less undermines your integrity and encourages cheating. What is the quote, "the only thing required for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing" This works for cheaters too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Do you have your MD's phone number? Call him now, well before the next match to discuss the matter, instead of just springing it on him at the match. The two of you can coordinate to get your ducks in a row before the match. Actually, a call from the MD to the shooter in question to let him know how things are going to go at the next match might just solve the problem. Either the shooter will show up in compliance, or not show up at all. The illegal equipment bothers me. The deliberately (or that's what I get from the OP's first post) loading 12 rounds into the gun bothers me more. It's for moments like this the FTDR was created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Xtreme Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 That is good advise from Duane. If I were a shooter at your club, and you posted results with that guy ahead of me using illegal equipment, I would never come back. If you are a sanctioned IDPA club you are obligated to follow the rulebook. If you are a certified IDPA S.O. you are obligated to enforce the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor_R Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 At one of my local clubs they don't have a outlaw division but I have seen a person or two that knows better bring a gun that wasn't in compliance with the rule book. IMO it dosen't bother me at all. The person pay's and play's and get's there score put on there local club site. Do I compare my score to that person? No, why should I when I know that person wasn't using the right gun, they cant classify with that gun and they cant shoot it in any sanctioned match's. Some people shoot IDPA for fun and others do it to play the game so they can get good at it. I look at it this way, it's like letting someone that's 2 play Monopoly. You know what ever they do wont count but you let them play just to be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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