Just Announced On Uspsa.org

[RHall]

WTF I guess I wont be going. 7 days plus travel. I dont think my parents would like me missing a week of college classes. I really would like to shoot at the nationals, but they made that almost impossible for most youger people and juniors.

RH

[j1b]

RHall

Granted it is difficult, but it is possible. I shot the whole time I was in college. Attended every nationals and several area matches. Just gotta budget your time and money!

JB

[Jake Di Vita]

Ryan,

Missed ya at the match today...

Granted it is not easy. However, any person can find a reason that they can't do something. It takes someone creative to find a way to do something.

Depending on the course...you could pull overtime the week before or after to catch up. You could get all the work early and just do it at night after the shooting. Most college courses have all the notes from the lectures typed up online, so you wouldn't be missing much.

You have plenty of options, no point to throw the towel in when you still have 10 months to figure something out.

[RHall]

thanks guys.

[IPSCDRL]

Actually the seven days could include travel. Registration is Sunday. Shoot Monday through Friday. Saturday is shoot-offs and prize distribution. Yeah, it's still a week but this IS the nationals.

[Rob Boudrie]

USPSA President Michael Voigt spent a considerable amount of time at the last board meeting briefing the board on the pros and cons of the various nationals options, including the Frank Garcia offer.

I was personally impressed by what Frank has to offer, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Although I cannot speak for Michael or the board, one very important factor which weigned in my personal conclusion that Michael Voigt made the correct decision under the circumstances was Frank's requirement that USPSA make a four consecutive year committment to hold a nationals at his range in order for us to book it for the 2004 nationals. This four year committment would thus increase the amount of "lock in." If there had been no multi-year committment required, I would have been actively encouraging Michael to place the 2004 Handgun nationals in Florida, and the 3 gun in PASA.

Michael went to considerable effort to evaluate all details, including arriving in Florida a few days before the November board meeting so he could visit Frank Garcia personally to discuss options, pricing, contract terms offered, etc.

I would really like to see a nationals at Frank's place in a future year when we would not be faced with the problem of multiple overlapping long term contracts.

Other factors which must be considered are the discount/subsidy available on hotels, as well as the range fee of each venue. But, in my opinion, the four year lock-in was the "biggie."

The complications regarding two concurrent multi year contracts are an example of how you need all the facts to understand the context in which a decision is made to be able to criticize from an informed perspective.

[Wakal]

So it is OK for PASA Park to negotiate a multi-year deal with a cash bribe option, but not for Frank to negotiate a multi-year deal? He must have forgot the bribe...Mike Voigt told me and my local club president (to our faces) about the cash bribe requirement at the Nationals this year when we were discussing what my club needed to do in order to put in a bid ourselves, so please don't think I'm being glib...just straight up honest...

He wanted 10-15k guaranteed cash money up front to USPSA from the "local community" to defray USPSA's cost. Very little discussion of bays, distance of range to the community, location of airports, average hotel cost, number/location/average cost of restaurants, "gun friendliness" of the state...everything we thought was important, and places PASA and Bend fall down flat on their face over (except number of bays)...no, not any of that...just the bribe money.

I'm very interested to hear more.

Alex

[Rob Boudrie]

Regarding the PASA multi-year deal

------------------------------------------

#1: I did not personally vote for it, but it is the current situation and I fully support USPSA honoring both the letter and spirit of the contract.

#2: At the time USPSA entered into the multi-year deal with PASA, we

a. did not have a guaranteed place which would host our nationals absent a new deal and

b. did not have any other multi-year deal to contend with. If USPSA did not have an existing multi-year deal, I expect that Franks's multi-year deal would be much more appealing.

To assert is that not accepting the Garcia offer in the presence of another binding multi-year contract already in force is the same as accepting a multi-year contract is just plain inaccurate. Also, the PASA multi-year offer came with a committment of CASH support which is a valid consideration, so I will move on to that topic:

Regarding the "cash support"

---------------------------------

The use of the term "bribe" to describe money paid TO USPSA AND NOT TO ANY USPSA OFFICIALS is an insult.

Yes, Quincy provides financial incentive. In addition, the PASA range fee is less than Frank requires. Polk County FL has a financial assistance deal as well, but it is not as appealing as the Qunicy deal (and I also think the FL deal could be improved upon by dealing directly with a selected match hotel).

USPSA is the purchaser of a service. It is very reasonable to consider price when negotiating any purchase - in fact, the failure to do so would be downright irresponsible. That being said, the cheapest fee does not necessarily mean the lowest total cost of running the match after accounging for all income and expenses.

My questions to Alex:

1. Do you think that USPSA should consider the cost when evaluating a nationals venue?

2. Do you think that money paid to USPSA above the board in a contracted and legal manner is a valid consideration?

3. How would you handle the financial problems and risks present with a concurrent contractual obligations to two ranges?

[Wakal]

Slow down there, friend...I never even thought about saying that anyone personally made money from the bribe PASA Park made to USPSA. Bribery is bribery, but bakeesh is bakeesh

Main Entry: 1bribe

Pronunciation: 'brIb

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, something stolen, from Middle French, bread given to a beggar

Date: 15th century

1 : money or favor given or promised in order to influence the judgment or conduct of a person in a position of trust

2 : something that serves to induce or influence

USPSA, as an entity, accepted a cash (CASH, your words backing me up, thank you) bribe given by PASA Park in order to sweeten the deal. We are NOT talking about an Olympic Committee bribe (or bakeesh) here, we are talking a straight quid pro quo between PASA Park and USPSA as entities in and of themselves, not to the profit of any individual (well, not to profit any USPSA individuals...I don't know, nor do I trust, anyone at PASA Park like I know, like, and trust the folks who run my sport).

I had heard rumors of this deal, and asked Mike Voigt about it. Mike confirmed the deal, and went on the record saying that any host of the Nationals needed to pony up between ten and fifteen thousand dollars cash money before they would even be considered.

Bribe, bribe, bribe, bribe, bribe.

As it stands, that seems to benefit USPSA, allowing them to hold a 24-stage match for (I assume) a $225 to $250 entry fee per shooter. Figuring 300 shooters at the minimum buy-in, that makes $67,500 cash money in entry fees. That really isn't that much to cover targets and related gear, set up a prize table the likes of which I saw at the 2003 Open AND Limited , as well as cover the cost of the range (even in Bend), and to comp all the RO's.

Were I running the show, I'd advise a different priority than the size of the bribe...but I've always been competitor-oriented, so my priorities were a bit different when Mike and I talked about it. My priorities:

1. Location. Is it gun-friendly or not? Oregon is a gun-hating state. Illinois is not much better...a gun-loathing state, not quite up to gun-hating status. IMO, we need to reward states that LIKE guns with our money...states like Florida, Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana....places that do not heap restrictions on the purchase of guns or ammunition, and "allow" their citizens (and permit-holding visitors) to carry same.

2. Location. Is there a two or three hour drive required to get to the hotel from the nearest Airport? Is there an hour drive from "hotel row" to the range? Is there an hour drive from the range to the nearest place to get food for less than $5 per hamburger?

3. Location. Is it equally miserable and expensive for most everyone to get there? The left coast, other left coast, or the top of the country makes travel disproportionally expensive for some, rather than about equal for most everyone.

One of the local shooters recommended to Mike that each Area hold the Nationals in a yearly rotation. Area 1, 2005...Area 2, 2006, etc. I thought that solved "3" fairly well, if not "1" or "2."

Lets see, that was your first question, considerations for the hosting of the Nationals. Your second question was about money paid to USPSA. I think bribery is always a consideration, and a smart businessman would be ill-suited for the job to forgo bribery out-of-hand as a means of decision making. However, a service organization should consider the service given to the end users (i.e. the shooters) as well as the bribe given to the service organization. I'd rather see a 20-stage match held in a gun-friendly state at a range closer to the airport and hotels than a 24-stage match held in a gun-hating or gun-loathing state hours from the nearest airport and hotels...just my opinion, of course.

Your third question...concurrent contractual obligations to two ranges? You may not know this about me, but I negotiate and oversee just under ten million dollars (yearly) worth of contracts for my employer, and have some minor and limited knowledge of contract law. Perhaps a one-year contract with option years would be in order...that would be my first thought right out of the box, of course. Multiple contracts to multiple ranges...I don't see the problem, there are two major categories of matches (3 gun and pure handgun), plus breakouts like we did in 2003 with two venues, two back-to-back matches per venue...the combinations and permutations are not so cut and dried.

Respectfully,

AlexjustanotherdumbshooterWakal

[Rob Boudrie]

"Perhaps a one-year contract with option years would be in order...that would be my first thought right out of the box, of course." That is, assuming the vendor was interested in such a contract. As was explained in the open session of the Orland board meeting, such was not an option - nor was any term shorter than 4 years.

The other points are well taken. A $10,000 host city payment for a 500 shooter match is $20 per head, or about $4.00 per person/day - so I don't think it should be an overriding consideration... especially when you are comparing it to "lower" support, not "zero support." My *personal position* is that the multi-year requirement is what prevented me from expressing support for the Garcia proposal at this time. Absent such a requirement, I would have encouraged our president to further pursue this location.

The term "bribe" is a loaded word which carries with it a negative connotation, and does not accurately describe the situation. The use of the term in this context is like using the term "bribing a police officer" when you in fact gave a police officer money to influence hm to sell you his used car.

[Wakal]

I understand completely, which is why I posted the dictionary definition of 'bribe.' Denotative and connotative meanings make completely different definitions with some words. I'm rather fond of 'bakeesh', myself, which translates more to "personally profitable bribe"...but I used to live in Turkey so I'm biased

A straight four-year contract is a bit limited in options, although I'd be a lot happier with Florida over Illinois.

One of the things that came up during the USPSA elections was the use of USPSA "grant money" to foster the upgrading of ranges so that there ARE options in hosting the Nationals nationwide. I know for a fact that my own range, if given $25k, could finish out our other 10 bays (for a total of 24, plus the rifle complex) and have enough working steel on hand to choke a goat (right now we can only choke a rather smallish goat). I liked that idea a lot.

I don't much care to be locked into one range, and agree wholeheartedly that four years was too much to demand up front.

Alex

[Rob Boudrie]

I caution anyone against drawing unflattering conclusions regarding Frank Garcia's operation just because he needed a multi-year contract. Hosting the USPSA Nationals would involve investments on the part of the range, which would needseveral years of amortization to make sense.

I really hope to find myself at Franks range in Florida shooting a USPSA handgun nationals one of these years. Who knows - it may actually happen.

Rob

[hoser]

Alex,

One point here - the so called "bribe" money you refer to was not paid by PASA Park. The funds for that support came from the city of Quincy and the Convention Bureau.

Arnie

[dminor]

Alex,

It is amusing to see you bring forward my idea from the USPSA election, especially since I am Vice President of PASA Park. Congrats on almost having your range completed. It would benefit all members if each Area could hold a Nationals, I know that Area 3 will not be able to do that for quite a while.

I guess you have not attended a Nationals, since I have worked each and every one of the Nationals that have been held at PASA Park, except for the one in 1989. I shot that one. I also attended Areas 3, 4, 5, & 6 and all four Nationals this year. So I have no idea why we have never met. I also assume you will be asking me to step down if I am running a stage at a match because you cannot trust me because of my connection to PASA Park. As you stated you cannot trust any one there.

I have yet to complain about your behavior here on the forum. That is because Rob is doing a great job of getting information out to our members. Having said that I would suggest you be a bit more polite.

[Matthew_Mink]

This oughta be good.

[Flexmoney]

I also assume you will be asking me to step down if I am running a stage at a match because you cannot trust me because of my connection to PASA Park. As you stated you cannot trust any one there.

I'm going to jump in here before this goes ugly. I think what Alex meant was that he didn't have any knowledge or experience with the staff at PASA. I don't think that he meant to imply that anybody there was Dishonest.

[admin nose butting out now]

[Wakal]

Thanks, Flex, that is exactly what I meant.

Denise, like I said when we met the first time...more correctly, when I had a chance at the Nationals to talk to you at some length, as I met you the first time at Area 4...I really like some of your ideas. I'll even post 'em on BE and say so!

Boy, call a bribe a bribe and people get touchy. That said, I stand corrected...according to Denise Minor, PASA Park did NOT bribe USPSA. The city of Quincy bribed USPSA. And I assume that PASA Park had nothing to do with talking Quincy into issuing the bribe...

I've been nothing but polite here, but I'm being attacked for calling a spade a spade....for it IS a spade, not a hay-fork, not a hoe, not a trowel...a spade. Lets try to lay off the personal attacks on Momma Wakal's least favorite son and discuss the issue of bribes instead of jumping on me for pointing out that the emperor isn't wearing shorts...or, more correctly in the vernacular of the day, is Going Singlestack...

USPSA accepted a bribe to hold major matches at PASA Park. I assume they accepted a bribe to hold matches at Bend. I KNOW, for a fact, that Mike Voigt expected a cash money payment, payola, bribe, to USPSA from the community of any club willing to put in a bid for the Nationals before any such bid would be considered.

Lets discuss this like rational adults, friends...no need for the attacks.

Alex

[BigDave]

I, for one, would like to see this hashed out objectively. Nothing like a good disection of the facts.

[Nik Habicht]

I, for one, would like to see this hashed out objectively. Nothing like a good disection of the facts.

I agree.

[ong45]

I don,t see a problem with "bribes". Seems to be sop when enticing companies and any other event to your area. Reno built a 100 million dollar (i think) bowling stadium to get bowling tournaments to commit to the area. Just the cost of doing business.

James

[tightloop]

Sorry, but I see a big problem...

It is more than jsut the cost of doing business...

[chp5]

I agree that open discussion is good, but I do believe we should get our terminology on the same page.

Alex is correct about the definition of “bribe,” but modern usage of the term clearly connotes a financial payment in order to induce the recipient to act DISHONESTLY.

Let’s be clear: this is NOT the case with MV and the USPSA board. They are simply seeking the best financial deal for USPSA and, in doing so, seeking financial commitments – which is a valid thing for USPSA to do.

I think the real question is what weight should USPSA give to the financial package when deciding on a venue for the Nationals.

[Thomas Moore]

any idea where the match hotel might be this year?

[TriggerT]

In all of the business dealings I have had through my two retail stores, what are being described here as "bribes" are called incentives. If a manufaccturer for example, wants the best spot in my store reserved to display their products, then they often literally pay for that space in one way or another. I don't consider this a bribe, it is their way of saying "we want to bnusiness with you, and here is what we are willing to do to make it happen."

[Loves2Shoot]

USPSA accepted a bribe to hold major matches at PASA Park. I assume they accepted a bribe to hold matches at Bend. I KNOW, for a fact, that Mike Voigt expected a cash money payment, payola, bribe, to USPSA from the community of any club willing to put in a bid for the Nationals before any such bid would be considered.

Lets discuss this like rational adults, friends...no need for the attacks.

Alex

Yep, it is part of the game. We bribed them into coming to Bend. It is not uncommon at all in business. When we have large conventions in Bend the Chamber of Commerce does the best it can to help convince local businesses to throw in perks to attract them here. I think it would be irresponsible of USPSA not to expect bribes wherever they hold a major match. When you bring $100k+ of real business into an area that area can afford to kick back a few bucks. I would expect nothing less from a good manager.