JFlowers Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 In the race for that one extra round in Open, I have often wonder why someone has not built a drum magazine like the one for the old P08 Luger. Don't know how you would engineer it or how you would measure it! 9mm AR with a one-sided drum, setup for Open.... to paraphrase one of my favorite quotes "Experimental gun with experimental ammunition. Let's experiment!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notasccrmom Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 Mostly to satisfy a curiosity, what's the legality of a 9mm AR Pistol in Open? For the sake of conversation, let's say that it would have no stock, just a bare pistol buffer tube, and no forend. Disregard the availability of holsters and strong/weak hand only shooting, I'm just wondering about the gun fitting the division.Thoughts? On a related note, what is the legality of pistol drum magazines, given that they meet size requirements for a division? How would the "length" be measured? whatcha buildiung down there Nathan? sounds interesting....... I'm not building anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 This question opens the floor for many subguns/ machine pistol types. I would like to see someone rock a MP5K or similar. Too bad select fire isn't a go in the rulebook. I'm sitting here imagining a close range three gun stage with a M4A1 and a Beta-mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splashdown Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Wouldn't the magazine/mag well forward of the trigger guard be considered a foregrip? I'm doubting this would be legal, even in open div. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notasccrmom Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) Wouldn't the magazine/mag well forward of the trigger guard be considered a foregrip? I'm doubting this would be legal, even in open div. The ATF doesn't see it that way. It's a mag well. It's a functional part of the gun. Edited October 20, 2009 by notasccrmom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Wouldn't the magazine/mag well forward of the trigger guard be considered a foregrip? I'm doubting this would be legal, even in open div. The ATF doesn't see it that way. It's a mag well. It's a functional part of the gun. I'd treat it as a magwell --- unless the shooter used it as a foregrip.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notasccrmom Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'd treat it as a magwell --- unless the shooter used it as a foregrip.... I know the rules specifically state no foregrips. If a magwell is a magwell, and freestyle is freestyle... As an example, if you had enough barrel/frame on a traditional 1911 style pistol, could you not grip it like a rifle (if you really wanted to)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'd treat it as a magwell --- unless the shooter used it as a foregrip.... I know the rules specifically state no foregrips. If a magwell is a magwell, and freestyle is freestyle... As an example, if you had enough barrel/frame on a traditional 1911 style pistol, could you not grip it like a rifle (if you really wanted to)? I'd be perfectly willing to be overruled by either DNROI or Arbitration. Until I am, if you grip an AR pistol in such a fashion, I'd make the above call and you'd be shooting for fun..... Not everything's spelled out in the rulebook --- some things are necessarily left to RO judgment, subject to appeal up the chain and to arbitration. If I really wanted to shoot an AR pistol competitively, I'd be exchanging e-mails with DNROI trying to get official rulings in place ahead of time --- but hey, that's me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Freestyle is freestyle. A foregrip is a gun part. The gun part would be the thing that is regulated here. A mag well is not a foregrip. My 2cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Freestyle is freestyle. I don't think you want to hang this argument on freestyle --- that's pretty well defined in section 1.1.5.... ....and 1.1.5 doesn't talk about equipment at all..... A foregrip is a gun part. The gun part would be the thing that is regulated here. A mag well is not a foregrip. My 2cents. And that's why I'd consult DNROI first..... ....because two perfectly reasonable ROs or RMs could make a different call..... ....one citing the gun parts argument, the other citing the gun use argument.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 ....one citing the gun parts argument, the other citing the gun use argument.... What would you base the "gun use" argument on? This isn't a stage procedure, nor a division requirement (like holster position or mag limits), right? 5.1.10 is an equipment rule. Is there another applicable, or more relevant, rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 This idea is just far enough off the norm that I can see the wheels in GentleMan Jim's head spinning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 ....one citing the gun parts argument, the other citing the gun use argument.... What would you base the "gun use" argument on? This isn't a stage procedure, nor a division requirement (like holster position or mag limits), right? 5.1.10 is an equipment rule. Is there another applicable, or more relevant, rule? What does 5.1.10 mean? You're telling me that you don't see a foregrip on the blaster you're using; I'm telling you that I'm seeing you using the magwell as a defacto foregrip --- and we're headed to arbitration..... ....where you might prevail, or might not, depending on how you phrase your argument versus how I phrase mine. If you prevail at a National match, I'd bet that there'd be a rules discussion at the next Board meeting..... Was USPSA trying to limit a cosmetic feature (it looks like a foregrip) or trying to limit a functional one (shooters should be using one hand or both on the pistol grip)? There's the rub --- fore grip isn't defined..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I am not sure Nik; I think I agree with Flex here. What if a shooter showed up with something like a red9 Broomhandle or one of these in 9mm & gripped it around the magwell? Not sure that the way one grips the gun would define what the gun's parts are. ....one citing the gun parts argument, the other citing the gun use argument.... What would you base the "gun use" argument on? This isn't a stage procedure, nor a division requirement (like holster position or mag limits), right? 5.1.10 is an equipment rule. Is there another applicable, or more relevant, rule? What does 5.1.10 mean? You're telling me that you don't see a foregrip on the blaster you're using; I'm telling you that I'm seeing you using the magwell as a defacto foregrip --- and we're headed to arbitration..... ....where you might prevail, or might not, depending on how you phrase your argument versus how I phrase mine. If you prevail at a National match, I'd bet that there'd be a rules discussion at the next Board meeting..... Was USPSA trying to limit a cosmetic feature (it looks like a foregrip) or trying to limit a functional one (shooters should be using one hand or both on the pistol grip)? There's the rub --- fore grip isn't defined..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 This idea is just far enough off the norm that I can see the wheels in GentleMan Jim's head spinning. No not this one Even if you could run a betamag...the obvious disadvantages would out weigh any round count advantages This setup may be uber cool for shooting from the hip...and spewing lots of rounds in the general vicinity of the targets Or Zombie defence...close quarters It could be fun in several different venues As a competitive pistol in open?...I think the single stackers would clean your clock Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I am not sure Nik; I think I agree with Flex here. What if a shooter showed up with something like a red9 Broomhandle or one of these in 9mm & gripped it around the magwell? Not sure that the way one grips the gun would define what the gun's parts are. I'd make the same call --- if I had to make it right now..... I'd then let the RM, arb committee or DNROI sort it out from there..... Local match --- I might use the time interval until preliminary scores are posted to get in touch with DNROI. I can see how you'd come to the conclusion you came to --- looks, not function.... Do you get where I'm coming from --- if it's a waterfowl that quacks like a duck, it must be a duck..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 If you prevail at a National match, I'd bet that there'd be a rules discussion at the next Board meeting..... Why ? Kinda sounds like you don't like the idea of it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 If you prevail at a National match, I'd bet that there'd be a rules discussion at the next Board meeting..... Why ? Kinda sounds like you don't like the idea of it ? I don't give a shit one way or the other. If it were the winning ticket, someone would already be shooting it --- we're not smarter about this than the top dogs in the game.... I do think that there's a reason for the rule forbidding shoulder stocks and fore grips ---- and I don't believe it's cosmetics..... I could be wrong about that...... It seems that when issues like this get arbed at the Nationals, the Board takes notice, and decides to clarify the rule. That was the only point I was trying to make with that sentence..... (And just to to really send you over the edge, if you jam the buffer tube on that AR pistol into your shoulder, I'll rule that it's a defacto shoulder stock..... :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregdavidl Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) A long time ago (late 80's) a competitor showed up at the now defunct Kansas City Indoor Championship at the old Hodgen's Powder test range with what I remember was called a Lahti. Looked like a sub-gun and had a big stick holding 9mm. He also had mounted a laser sight since most of the courses of fire were low light. (This was back when single stack .38 supers with iron sights were just starting to be the hot ticket.) His holster passed the retention test when he jumped and spun over the bar and he was allowed to shoot. Was not an optimal gun platform, but cool as hell. I think the crowd wanting to watch him shoot was as big or bigger than the ones for the big name shooters. I called a friend who was there with me and it was a Linda pistol, manufactured by Wilkinson Arms. Edited October 20, 2009 by gregdavidl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Nik, Wouldn't your "use" position mean that gripping on the front face of the trigger guard wouldn't be allowed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 And where oh where is the popcorn icon when you need it Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Nik,Wouldn't your "use" position mean that gripping on the front face of the trigger guard wouldn't be allowed? Nope. Hard to get enough fingers on the trigger guard to qualify it as a foregrip...... Build your own frame, with an extension off the front of the trigger guard, and we might need to talk..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 And where oh where is the popcorn icon when you need it Jim Why? Kyle and I are both being Devil's advocates...... Someone else want to jump in and try a new tack to persuade either of us? Easy to sit on the sidelines and make comments, harder to actually think about the issue..... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Nik,Wouldn't your "use" position mean that gripping on the front face of the trigger guard wouldn't be allowed? Nope. Hard to get enough fingers on the trigger guard to qualify it as a foregrip...... You are just making stuff up !!! Easy to sit on the sidelines and make comments, harder to actually think about the issue..... :lol: Very true. Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Nik,Wouldn't your "use" position mean that gripping on the front face of the trigger guard wouldn't be allowed? Nope. Hard to get enough fingers on the trigger guard to qualify it as a foregrip...... You are just making stuff up !!! Show me a definition for fore grip in the rulebook. I'll be happy to use it. Until USPSA issues a ruling, or provides a definition that exempts large forward magwells, I've given you my (teutonic and therefore infallible :roflol: ) CRO judgment..... Seriously --- if someone showed up with one of these, and was using it in the described fashion, I'd be trying to call my way up the NROI foodchain for advice..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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