notasccrmom Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) Mostly to satisfy a curiosity, what's the legality of a 9mm AR Pistol in Open? For the sake of conversation, let's say that it would have no stock, just a bare pistol buffer tube, and no forend. Disregard the availability of holsters and strong/weak hand only shooting, I'm just wondering about the gun fitting the division. Thoughts? On a related note, what is the legality of pistol drum magazines, given that they meet size requirements for a division? How would the "length" be measured? Edited October 1, 2009 by notasccrmom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) Can't see why it wouldn't be allowed, unless the USPSA definition of shoulder stock is different from that of ATF (which I guess you could get around with a piston upper). I doubt you could successfully argue that a drum magazine is legal based on the fact that the feed-tower is less than 170mm Edited October 1, 2009 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufDog Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I think I remember a quote from the "Prez" himself saying if you can carry it to the line its legal for open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notasccrmom Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 I doubt you could successfully argue that a drum magazine is legal based on the fact that the feed-tower is less than 170mm I agree, and wouldn't expect that argument to stand... but what if the entire length (drum and feed tower) was less than 170mm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Mostly to satisfy a curiosity, what's the legality of a 9mm AR Pistol in Open? For the sake of conversation, let's say that it would have no stock, just a bare pistol buffer tube, and no forend. Disregard the availability of holsters and strong/weak hand only shooting, I'm just wondering about the gun fitting the division.Thoughts? On a related note, what is the legality of pistol drum magazines, given that they meet size requirements for a division? How would the "length" be measured? Holster position might be the problem, if you're planning on starting with a drum..... Then again, getting a viable holster, might be the serious problem..... Clearly -- no legal holster, no go.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notasccrmom Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 Holster position might be the problem, if you're planning on starting with a drum.....Then again, getting a viable holster, might be the serious problem..... Clearly -- no legal holster, no go.... Which is why I asked to disregard the holster issue. I'm just wondering about the gun. Is there anything that I'm missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Put neat little .22 holes through non hardened poppers and look over your shoulder for MD and upset club members. Legal yea. The right thing to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notasccrmom Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 Put neat little .22 holes through non hardened poppers and look over your shoulder for MD and upset club members. Legal yea. The right thing to do? .22 sized holes aren't legal. That's why I specifically asked about a 9mm AR. I edited my first post to make "9mm" bold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) BSeevers-I think he means 9mm AR type like this 9mm AR Type. Notasccrmom-to be honest with you, you would get hosed by someone and probably anyone with a real Open gun. I used one of these for a couple of years-great car gun, especially when fully automatic, with a Trijicon Reflex, but for our sport-they suck with fast transitions and they reload like an AR, you have to tug-there goes your time. Great thought though. Edited for bad speling. Edited October 1, 2009 by Jadeslade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Well they make a BETA mag in 9mm...it may be with in 170mm tall No doubt more than 500 comercial units have been built If you construct a legal holster (not to hard to do ) I cant think of any reason you could not do it But alas....its not the best tool for the job...could be kinda fun though Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notasccrmom Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 Well they make a BETA mag in 9mm...it may be with in 170mm tall No doubt more than 500 comercial units have been built If you construct a legal holster (not to hard to do ) I cant think of any reason you could not do it But alas....its not the best tool for the job...could be kinda fun though Jim I agree that it's not going to be faster than a typical open gun in capable hands. Reloads would suck, the holster is a small hurdle but not a deal breaker, and it's a little unwieldy compared to a lighter pistol. The idea came up between some friends, so I was just wondering if there was some reason that it hasn't been done already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Would the handguard be considered a foregrip? If so, Rule 5.1.10 would kick it out. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notasccrmom Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 Would the handguard be considered a foregrip? If so, Rule 5.1.10 would kick it out.Bill Leave it off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 No doubt more than 500 comercial units have been built Not a requirement for Open..... Building a single division-compliant unit is enough..... Hence, open..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I agree that it's not going to be faster than a typical open gun in capable hands. Reloads would suck, the holster is a small hurdle but not a deal breaker, and it's a little unwieldy compared to a lighter pistol. The idea came up between some friends, so I was just wondering if there was some reason that it hasn't been done already. Probably that's your answer --- because it wouldn't beat a "normal" open gun in the hands of a shooter of the same experience level.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 On a related note, what is the legality of pistol drum magazines, given that they meet size requirements for a division? How would the "length" be measured?Holster position might be the problem, if you're planning on starting with a drum..... Then again, getting a viable holster, might be the serious problem..... Clearly -- no legal holster, no go.... 50 round single side drum mag and a CR Speed holster will get you there. One of the guys that shoots with our club has just such a set up and it works (and is Open legal). That being said, the thing is not the best handling shooter, very front heavy if you ask me but it works. Joe W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 This is a practical discussion, since it is possible that a newbie might show up for his/her first match with such a gun. On a related note, I had a relative newbie show up with a 5.7 last match. In no way,shape, or form does a 5.7 fit in any division of USPSA or IDPA. If steel were allowed at my club, I would have told him "Sorry. Can't let you shoot. Go to the cashier and get your money back - too bad about the long drive you had to make. You are not shooting tonight." But as it was, I realized this guy had been to a previous IDPA & USPSA and was a paying club member who simply wanted to shoot since he was starting to really enjoy the sports. Turning him away would not be the best option. Instead, we explained the problem, made sure he understood the rules problem his gun presented and let him shoot with the squad on this one occasion for no score. Everyone went home happy. If a newbie shows up with a "less than optimal" gun (or only the 2 mags that came with his gun), please consider accommodating them if it can be done safely & within the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Carlos is right on here Any new shooter should get an overwhelming amount of support from the rest of us Loan them gear mags ammo...whatever it takes!! We NEED these new folks...bring them into the fold Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 This is a practical discussion, since it is possible that a newbie might show up for his/her first match with such a gun.On a related note, I had a relative newbie show up with a 5.7 last match. In no way,shape, or form does a 5.7 fit in any division of USPSA or IDPA. If steel were allowed at my club, I would have told him "Sorry. Can't let you shoot. Go to the cashier and get your money back - too bad about the long drive you had to make. You are not shooting tonight." But as it was, I realized this guy had been to a previous IDPA & USPSA and was a paying club member who simply wanted to shoot since he was starting to really enjoy the sports. Turning him away would not be the best option. Instead, we explained the problem, made sure he understood the rules problem his gun presented and let him shoot with the squad on this one occasion for no score. Everyone went home happy. If a newbie shows up with a "less than optimal" gun (or only the 2 mags that came with his gun), please consider accommodating them if it can be done safely & within the rules. +1 Here. The club I shoot with is always open to new shooters and if they forget something we will do anything we can to make sure they shoot safely and have a great time. It is not uncommon to see some of the members who have been with the club for quite a few years loaning out belts, mag pouches, holsters, ammo and even guns to a fellow shooter in need. This sport is all about good natured competition and the club I belong to swears by it. Joe W. By the way, we actually tried a 5.7 carbine against our steel and the ballistic tip (plastic) or soft point bullets didn't hurt the steel at all. With such a light bullet, even at high velocities, it didn't do anything more than knock the paint off the steel. And this was done from just over 8 yards from the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Put neat little .22 holes through non hardened poppers and look over your shoulder for MD and upset club members. Legal yea. The right thing to do? .22 sized holes aren't legal. That's why I specifically asked about a 9mm AR. I edited my first post to make "9mm" bold. Oh sorry missed that. For me AR comes in one flavor. I still wouldn't do it except for laughs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Tommy gun ( TA5 ) drum = 6.75 inch = 171.45 millimeter ...so close (but, it has that foregrip) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Tommy gun ( TA5 ) drum = 6.75 inch = 171.45 millimeter...so close (but, it has that foregrip) Hummmmm A little creative filing on the mag might get it down a few more thousandths and a shorter barrel minus the forward hand guard to help with the balance..... LOL Joe W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I say yes, legal for open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diablodawg Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 This question opens the floor for many subguns/ machine pistol types. I would like to see someone rock a MP5K or similar. Too bad select fire isn't a go in the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Mostly to satisfy a curiosity, what's the legality of a 9mm AR Pistol in Open? For the sake of conversation, let's say that it would have no stock, just a bare pistol buffer tube, and no forend. Disregard the availability of holsters and strong/weak hand only shooting, I'm just wondering about the gun fitting the division.Thoughts? On a related note, what is the legality of pistol drum magazines, given that they meet size requirements for a division? How would the "length" be measured? whatcha buildiung down there Nathan? sounds interesting....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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