Duane Thomas Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Well, these are definitely two different approaches to solving the problem. How does that approach work for you? Please understand, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious. Mine's working pretty darn well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Muscles don't have memory. Quite possibly true. The poster to whom I was responding used the term, so I used it when replying. Frankly whenever someone says to me "muscle memory" I just automatically translate it into "the subconscious mind." And that's where I have a problem with the idea of shooting slowly and accurately, then thinking that's going to transition over to shooting fast and accurately. The subconscious mind needs to become accustomed to operating at that speed, the conscious mind needs to understand it can indeed get out of the way and things will not fall apart, in fact they will work out much better. This trust between the conscious and subconscious minds, the conscious understanding that the subconscious mind is capable of shooting accurately even when the gun is firing faster than the conscious mind can control the shooting, is not going to occur unless the conscious mind KNOWS though successful repetition after successful repetition, that it works, at that speed. Shoot accurately slowly, then try to transition that over to firing much faster and not only is the subconscious mind not able to function at that speed, but shooting fast always seems something "other", something very different than what we do normally, and therefore frightening. This is the very antithesis of the relaxed trust that leads to good performance at speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Brass Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 I tried to shoot zero down at a 7 stage club match once. It was a disaster. I was so focused on making my hits that I literally lost track of time and I only reduced my points by 25%. From that point forward, I went back to shooting as fast as I could and my scores went back up to where they were before. From my perspective, it is easier to slow down than it is to speed up. Having said this, I will agree with Duane. I have watched dozens of shooters go from novice to their current level, over the last 6 years. I will say that the guys who start out moving and shooting too fast for their current skill level progress up the class ladder quicker than those who start out slow, but more accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entropic Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 (edited) I think what the OP meant was: on any given stage, how do I maximize my score? I would say that there is an ideal balance, but I am inexperienced compared to most people here. You should probably be shooting fast enough that you miss some "A"s but not too many...maybe 3 "C"s Edited September 26, 2009 by entropic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 This is the IDPA forum. We don't have As and Cs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entropic Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 This is the IDPA forum. We don't have As and Cs. Indeed... Well if IDPA is anything like IPSC, I'd say that the best way to get an idea of how to maximize your score is to read the rules on scoring and just get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 It is not an OR question. Speed without accuracy will not score well and accuracy without speed won't score well either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Damn straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Well I can say Duane without a doubt you have just posted the best replies I have seen or posted myself since I started Uspsa in regards to this topic. You pretty much nailed this topic down and I suggest you move some of your post over to Uspsa side and well as leave it here. You have some great insight on this topic. You can practice as slow and as accurate as you want but when things go faster you have to relearn everything over at that speed. Its a whole different feeling, visual input, recoil control and thought process(or lack there of *subconcious*). If you practice at 50% speed and practice accuracy you can be accurate but it doesn't mean you can be accurate at 100% speed. If you practice at 100% speed and can be accurate you can be accurate anytime you want if you "choose" too and make it a priority. I'll be reading this again tomorrow. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Wow. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Hmmm....shooting might be like reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Well, my mother taught me to read almost before I could walk, so if that's the case I should be ahead of the game, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 (edited) Well, these are definitely two different approaches to solving the problem. How does that approach work for you? Please understand, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious. Mine's working pretty darn well. From reading the post here again, I get the feeling that we might be saying the same thing in different terms. People of course think in different ways, and therefore come to an understanding of things by different paths. Just to give a better understanding of where I am coming from I am primarily an olympic style fencer, who also competes in shooting sports (IDPA, USPSA, & CAS). I fenced varsity in college, and was pretty good. I came back to fencing in Dec. 1999, after 9 years away. From 2000 - 2009 I have qualified to (and competed in) the US Fencing Summer Nationals nine out of the ten years (missing only 2008). That is in multiple weapons and divisions (Foil and Epee, Div III and Div. II), and facing some of the best fencers the US has to offer. It demands all of the skills I have seen in the shooting sports, and then some. I can pretty much say that you are a better shooter than I am Duane, and that is due to more experience and training. In total I have fenced approximately 13 years (3 in college and 10 after), and have only been in shooting sports approximately 5. My view on athletic competition has a different history than yours. In fencing the mechanics are the same for everyone, but it is how you use them. I see shooting sports in a similar fashion. The difference being that in fencing you are using those mechanics in a head-to-head fashion, while in shooting sports it is against inanimate targets. In shooting you can lay out your plan on how to complete a stage and then go for it. In fencing you lay out your plan for the opponent you face and adjust it on the fly. I may not have covered all the points that I meant to, but this is what came to me up to now. Back to your above question.... My approach is working pretty well for me also, but my goals may be quite different than yours. My goal is to be the best competition revolver shooter that I can be with what I use, as far as shooting sports go. My goal is to also be the best Foil and Epee fencer than I can be. I practice fencing on average 2-3 times a week, workout 2-4 times a week in the gym, and get in live fire shooting practice once a week. The fencing season just started and I plan on 2 fencing tournaments a month, along with 1-2 shooting events. I don't look at fast vs. accurate, but rather using the fundamentals at the best speed possible. You have to know the fundamentals, and then apply them as fast as you can. If you are constantly thinking about the application of the fundamentals, then you still have work to do. The application of the fundamentals should be subconscious, and with that alacrity is free to roam. Edited September 26, 2009 by Blueridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Just in the interests of experimentation, the next time you go to the range, why not forget about "the best speed possible" and just shoot as fast as possible period while sitting back, mentally speaking, and watching the sights? See what happens (pun intended). If you've been shooting seriously for five years, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind you already have the skills to perform at a high level. It's just a matter of letting them out. Example: 3 targets at, say, five yards with six inches between targets (let's make this easy), you're going to draw and double tap them all. Just commit to getting that process, those six shots, over as fast as possible. Do that over and over again. If you don't connect with every shot - and I'm not saying you won't, you well might - the temptation will be to "slow down and get the hits." Don't. Keep turning out the reps at max speed. You're going to find in short order that "max speed" doesn't really seem that fast - that you really do have all the time in the world to track the front sight in recoil, to move the gun between targets and get it aimed in at the center of the next target, even when firing as fast as you possibly can. Because, even when cranking off splits in the high teens (which is about as fast as I can do it at my current skill level) or low .2s, the amount of time it takes to pull the trigger again is greater than the amount of time it takes for the gun to come down out of recoil, greater than the amount of time it takes to transition the gun. You always have time between shots to do whatever you need to do. That's how you'll know you're really shooting well: the feeling that you're always waiting on the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 <snip> the feeling that you're always waiting on the gun. <snip> I get there for a stage or two and then I lose it - I just let it slip away... I think I start thinking, then it's over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Well, don't do that. What you are experiencing is a sneak peek of your potential. The more time you spend in that space, the easier it will become to visit it whenever you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 shooting a state match, i just try to balance everything out to the feel of being consistent on every stage,and try to resist blowing it all out on the little 4/6 shot stages...using par time in practice will help out also,and if you want to practice consistent transitions during a fry fire secession..get you a metronome,set it up past your current level and go for it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 I'll throw this one out there: http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?sho...=speed+accuracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 So do you really think that Eric guy is qualified to have an opinion...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Christian Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 This has been an extremely interesting thread with a lot of very constructive thoughts. I'd like to add another opinion. We would all like to be very fast and very accurate. Some are. Some have not reached that level yet. Speaking strictly of IDPA... is it possible that when analyzing a particular stage one makes the decision to slow down for accuracy... or speed up for time... in view of the final score? And, the potential pitfalls inherent within the stage? Quick example... 3 targets at 7 yards...2 round minimum per target... one target has a non-threat snuggled against it, leaving only a fraction of the chest O zone visible and about 3/4 of the head. Do you try to burn this stage and risk the non-threat hit? Do you accept a 1 zone hit on the chest? Do you slow down a beat on this target and take the available 4x6 inch head shot? Opt for the head shot at high speed and miss and you're 2.5 sec down (would have taken much less than that to slow and hot the head)... tag the non-threat and you're out of the match (if you are an upper level shooter). Do you burn the two open targets and slow down for the non-threated shielded one, or do you just say " I'm slowing a beat and shooting down 0". What does the final score say? Another example... three targets... one at 15 yards, one at 20 yards, and one at 25 yards. Do you take the time needed to execute a perfect sight picture and trigger press to shoot down zero? Or do you blaze through triple tapping every thing and hoping you have at least one 0 or 1 to avoid a FTN? Or do you just get the sights into the upper chest zone where the O zone lives and trigger smoothly... accepting the fact that any 1s you shoot will have taken less time in terms of the .5 sec penalty than trying to shoot 0s... and with little chance of a FTN. Is it possible that balancing speed vs accuracy can be situational... depending upon the targets presented in the COF? Should one look at a particular stage and say " This is pure speed"... or "I'd better not screw up". I think... in terms of final match score... that speed vs accuracy is sometimes situational. Chris Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Is it possible that balancing speed vs accuracy can be situational... depending upon the targets presented in the COF?Should one look at a particular stage and say " This is pure speed"... or "I'd better not screw up". I think... in terms of final match score... that speed vs accuracy is sometimes situational. Of course, you are very correct, and I do it all the time. But you are still talking about shooting within your speed/accuracy balance of maintaining control on a single stage. What the OP appeared to be asking was slightly different, and I am sure we have beat on the drum well past what he thought he would get. In your hypothetical, some might suggest you shoot it as fast as you can while others say take it down a bit (say 70%) and make sure you are getting all -0 hits. I say know what 100% feels like on the various distances and MOAs we get as target presenations and shoot all shots at 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Christian Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 A man who knows his limitations... stays within them... and excecutes perfectly will often beat a younger, faster shooter who has yet to learn what his limitations actually are. Naturally, we all strive to improve. But... in some cases reality is reality. You don't have to be the fastest shooter in order to win an IDPA match... sometimes you just have to be the smartest. Speed vs accuracy is always a "risk/reward" situation. Rewards for speed are great. The risks of failure are equally so. Chris Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 I have been thinking about this thing about being fast. What is fast? Sure we need to get to the gun as quickly and efficiently as possible and all the movements need to be quick target to target......position to position.... but the shooting to me is all about acceptability of the sight alignment. We all no that with most shots we do not need perfect sight alignment. You need to find out in practice by pushing what you can accept and what you can not accept visually. Will you accept the sights any where in the -0 zone or just in the center of the -0 zone. Hope this made since. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Christian Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 No matter how "fast" you are you still have to hit the target. You can't miss fast enough to win in IDPA. Speed is great, but accuracy counts a lot. Sometimes you just have to create the perfect blend of the two and a lot of that depends on the COF. I've seen lightening fast shooters crash & burn when they had half a head to shoot for in the middle of a COF, because they couldn't slow their shooting rhytmn enough to hit that small a target. Legendary Border Patrolman Bill Jordan once noted " Speed is great but accuracy is final". In an IDPA match I think one is best off shooting as fast as they can maintain a guaranteed 1 zone accuracy. Chris Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Is it possible that balancing speed vs accuracy can be situational... depending upon the targets presented in the COF? Sure. But how fast you're going to be when you "slow down" is still going to depend on how fast seems "normal" to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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