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waxman

brass in gun

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Shooter walks up to the line. RO says make ready. Shooter removes mag from pouch inserts into pistol. Racks slide to chamber a round. When the slide is racked, a empty piece of brass flies out of the chamber and lands into a pile of about 100 other pieces of brass.

This is after several stages, not the first stage, and yes the gun was cleared by the RO on the last stage. What is the call, and what rule.

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My guess would be Match DQ due to unsafe gun handling:

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Later, in glossary:

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber

or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

Editted to add: It is the responsibility of the shooter to make sure their gun is truly empty when finishing a stage.

Edited by High Lord Gomer

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My guess would be Match DQ due to unsafe gun handling:

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Later, in glossary:

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber

or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

Editted to add: It is the responsibility of the shooter to make sure their gun is truly empty when finishing a stage.

Empty casings aren't dummy rounds though nor are they live rounds.

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My guess would be Match DQ due to unsafe gun handling:

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Later, in glossary:

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber

or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

Editted to add: It is the responsibility of the shooter to make sure their gun is truly empty when finishing a stage.

Empty casings aren't dummy rounds though nor are they live rounds.

Does this rule indicate that empty cases are considered dummy rounds?

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. ...

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This is what I am wondering, and also, if any object in your gun was allowed, which I dont think it is, how could you tell which object was yours, when it fell into a huge pile of brass and loaded rounds?

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This also defines empty cases as Dummy ammunition:

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

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Shooter walks up to the line. RO says make ready. Shooter removes mag from pouch inserts into pistol. Racks slide to chamber a round. When the slide is racked, a empty piece of brass flies out of the chamber and lands into a pile of about 100 other pieces of brass.

This is after several stages, not the first stage, and yes the gun was cleared by the RO on the last stage. What is the call, and what rule.

If the gun was cleared, how'd the brass get there? Seems to me there's only three possibilities:

1) Gun wasn't properly cleared on previous stage, and RO didn't properly confirm UASC, or

2) Shooter fired gun or loaded ammo between previous stage and stage in question, or

3) Someone used telekinesis to magically sneak a piece of brass into his gun.

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If anyone knows, how it got in there please do tell, I would pay for that information! I can assure you though, the gun was not fired between stages. The Gun worked flawlessly after the infraction, so there appears to be no ejector, or extractor problems. I am personally thinking a space time portal was opened and a gremlin snuck it in there, believe me, it has kept me awake thinking about it.

Edited by waxman

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If anyone knows, how it got in there please do tell, I would pay for that information! I can assure you though, the gun was not fired between stages. The Gun worked flawlessly after the infraction, so there appears to be no ejector, or extractor problems. I am personally thinking a space time portal was opened and a gremlin snuck it in there, believe me, it has kept me awake thinking about it.

I'm pretty sure that 13.1.4 makes it clear the shooter is responsible for monitoring the space time portal and denying access to gremlins. Sorry.

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This is what I am wondering, and also, if any object in your gun was allowed, which I dont think it is, how could you tell which object was yours, when it fell into a huge pile of brass and loaded rounds?

That one doesn't matter --- RO sees it and calls it, that's it. Under 11.1.2 there's no duty to be able to identify the actual piece of brass/round....

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What I think happned, is the RO, who was very fatigued, thought the shooter simply accidently racked the slide twice, ejecting the first round chambered. I guess we will never know. The shooter either way, was not DQ'ed, and finds himself fortunate, but yet bewildered.

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I don't mean to stir the s**t, but the definitions and rules referred above relate to "handling" ammunition in the safety area. This is not what is asked by the OP. Are we to assume that those definitions are valid throughout all sections of the rule book? The word "dummy round" is not defined in the glossary, however it is defined parenthetically in the sections referred to above. In addition, could one make an argument that extracting an empty casing is not in fact "handling" ammunition (it was never touched by the shooter), and thus would not be covered by the rules cited?

My understanding is that the rules for "handling" ammunition are specific to only the safe area and not anywhere else. Meaning, a competitor can load magazines, inspect, "handle" ammunition anywhere except in the safe area (as long as they are not "handling" there firearm outside of the safe area).

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The reason for referring to the sections related to "handling" ammunition is because that is where they define what a dummy round is.

The DQ'able offense is not for "handling" a dummy round, but rather:

Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

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I edited the topic title.

Folks, please include a good subject descriptor in the thread titles. The "look at this" style is no good.

We've seen a few of these lately...

From the Forum Guidelines:

Thread Titles

When starting a new thread, please use descriptive words in the thread’s Title and Description. For example: Use –

"Failure To Extract" (Title)

"In .40 cal Single Stack" (Description)

Instead of –

"Has anyone seen this?" (Title)

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)

- Mod Squad

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DQ under 10.5, unsafe gun handling, you dont need a specific point.

All the other points in 10.5 are examples not an all inclusive list.

"Examples of unsafe gunhandling include but are not limited to:"

Lack of chamber awareness is number two on the basic gun safety list.

Muzzle awareness, chamber awareness, finger awareness.

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Was the gun bagged between stages?

Only possible way assuming the gun WAS clear..is that a case entered the magwell, and was dislodged during loading

A case could land in the magwell ...fired from the active shooter on stage..or when in the bag, and picked one up.

Or a buddy may have dropped one in the well <_<

Its one of those ...You cant get there from here things.

It boils down to...

1...The RO failed to SEE an empty chamber

2...the shooter in some way placed a round.(loaded or unloaded In chamber)

3...a round (loaded or unloaded ) was introduced into the magwell.

What I suspect...a round (loaded) was ejected from the mag when the slide was racked .

In any event..it would be a tough call for the RO...and only a VERY diligent RO would have been able to discern what really happened.

Jim

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Here is another possability, I have new mags and the spring and follower have not been fully trained yet. When I say this, I mean sometimes, when the mag runs dry, the follower jams up the gun, as it exits the top of the mag, and enters the chamber. This is what happened on the stage prior to that one. I just locked the slide to the rear, dropped the mag, and showed the RO it was empty. Maybe , just maybe, when the slide cycled the last round, the follower interfered with the extractor, and the brass stayed in the chamber. Since I did not rack the slide, it simply stayed in the barrel, until i racked it on the next stage, at make ready. This is a strech, I know, but it is all I can think of. The gun was not bagged between stages, and even if it was, i doubt you could seat a mag in the gun with a piece of brass in the magwell.

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If the follower poped out of the mag...I think a round could :surprise:

Jim

PS the RO has to SEE an empty chamber!!

If it had a case in the chamber...its on you, AND the RO

Edited by GentlemanJim

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If the follower poped out of the mag...I think a round could :surprise:

Jim

PS the RO has to SEE an empty chamber!!

If it had a case in the chamber...its on you, AND the RO

The folower is a Bolen, and according to the Mag tuner, they will come out for a while until the springs get some memory. No rounds can exit since the feed lips hold them. The follower only comes out when it is turned a little. I find it kind of weird too, but the mag tuner said it is normal. The mag I loaded on the stage in question was a old mag with grams parts, so no round popped out. I saw the empty brass, the RO saw it, and we both watched it fly though the air in slow motion and land with a deafening clang on the other brass on the ground. I waited for either a stop, or a standby beep, and I heard the beep, so i went.

I speculate he either did not know it was a DQ offence, did not believe his eyes, was tired, didnt really see where it came from, or was just so sick of being in the heat. Either way, it is a lesson that I will never forget. Or I mean the shooter in question!!

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PS the RO has to SEE an empty chamber!!

If it had a case in the chamber...its on you, AND the RO

"If Clear, Hammer Down" puts the responsibility on the shooter and NOT the RO.

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I can see that :closedeyes:

I think we as shooters are responsible to SEE a clear chamber...as well as the RO

Its that pesky UNLOADED gun that gets people hurt.

This little incodent may well be the learning experiance The saves someone an injury.

We all can learn from things like this!

Thanks for the post!

Jim

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If the follower poped out of the mag...I think a round could :surprise:

Jim

PS the RO has to SEE an empty chamber!!

If it had a case in the chamber...its on you, AND the RO

Ummm, no --- it's the shooter's responsibility to ensure the gun is clear. See Rule 8.3.7 "If clear....."

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