"Muzzle!" and "Finger" safety warnings

[Hank Ellis]

Curtis;

Remember the stage at Gator a year or two ago where you started seated in a car, retrieved the gun from the glovebox, engaged targets out the left and right windows and around the doorpost? Yeah, that one.

The RO on that gave plenty of muzzle warnings. The steering wheel made reloads more difficult to be USPSA safe. The natural tendency was to turn the gun so the magwell was facing the body, hence the muzzle was just about to break the 180. Here, I believe warnings were helpful and appropiate for all shooters regardless of experience level.

As with most things in the shooting world, when to give muzzle and finger warnings is 'it depends'.

[SA Friday]

There's a line (and it's damn close) for me for the muzzle and the finger. Some shooters have a tendency to not post their finger on the side of the slide during reloads and movement. It kinda floats outside the guard all curled up. I watch them close and give warning's when appropriate. Muzzle is 177-9 area if they stop there. If the gun movement takes it past 180, then I just stop them and DQ. I don't care if they've shot for 20 years or a new shooter.

[BayouSlide]

Curtis;

Remember the stage at Gator a year or two ago where you started seated in a car, retrieved the gun from the glovebox, engaged targets out the left and right windows and around the doorpost? Yeah, that one.

The RO on that gave plenty of muzzle warnings. The steering wheel made reloads more difficult to be USPSA safe. The natural tendency was to turn the gun so the magwell was facing the body, hence the muzzle was just about to break the 180. Here, I believe warnings were helpful and appropiate for all shooters regardless of experience level.

As with most things in the shooting world, when to give muzzle and finger warnings is 'it depends'.

I've used that same stage as an example in talking to people about this issue. The "Muzzle!" warning startled me because I knew I had an adequate safety margin, and hesitated, wondering what was going on until I regained my concentration. Admittedly, it doesn't take much to break my concentration when I'm shooting.

And I agree with you completely: it absolutely depends. The skill level of the shooter can also shift the balance in that decision one way or the other. I'm more concerned with a new shooter moving too quickly towards 120 degrees than somebody with solid skills pushing 165. But I'll continue to watch them both like a hawk

Curtis

[smokshwn]

I very strongly prefer no warnings.

One reason is I know what my plan is and the distraction of "warnings" can be bothersome while executing the stage.

Secondly and most important, is that anything other than the order to STOP can quickly deteriorate into a distracting conversation. Which is no good for the RO, Shooter, or safety on the range. It is very likely that the shooter will be experiencing some level of auditory exclusion while shooting, couple that with hearing protection, executing the course of fire etc. and it is very likely that a shooter will not hear the exact verbiage of finger, muzzle, or any other warning.

As a shooter, I feel it is much easier and effective if we only have to program one action when we hear the voice from the RO, and that is to STOP.

[BayouSlide]

Some shooters have a tendency to not post their finger on the side of the slide during reloads and movement. It kinda floats outside the guard all curled up.

You're right: that one always concerns me, especially because it's only apparent from limited viewing angles that their finger is truly outside the guard and it's often impossible to keep that perfect viewing angle during the ebb and flow of the stage. Worth a warning, or a post-run discussion, for sure. You wish they would go with the crowd and keep that finger planted on the side of the slide.

Curtis

[JThompson]

Some shooters have a tendency to not post their finger on the side of the slide during reloads and movement. It kinda floats outside the guard all curled up.

You're right: that one always concerns me, especially because it's only apparent from limited viewing angles that their finger is truly outside the guard and it's often impossible to keep that perfect viewing angle during the ebb and flow of the stage. Worth a warning, or a post-run discussion, for sure. You wish they would go with the crowd and keep that finger planted on the side of the slide.

Curtis

Yes, I see this one all the time and it looks like the finger is in there, but it's not. I warned a guy one time and he was sure it wasn't in there. I surfed his other shoulder and found it indeed was not in, but just outside, but curled as to look like it was in. I told him if he didn't want to get sent home early, he had better make it easier for us ROs to see. He wasn't impressed with that.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm more interested in determining whether experienced shooters would rather receive such warnings.

Curtis

Does that really matter? In other words, what does shooter preference have to do with serving as an R.O.? I tend not to use warnings, but have, in instances where they were warranted. Shooter preference, identity or experience level of the shooter had nothing to do with it; rather it was situation driven.....

Nik I feel you're misinterpreting my point. I'm not advocating removing any RO discretion. I'm simply curious.

Since issuing warnings is an option for the RO, but not a requirement, I think understanding how shooters feel on this issue is important. You are doing your job as an RO no matter which side of this equation you fall on, whether you give warnings or not. The rule book is clear on this. And if the rule book says I have to option to do something, but am not required to do so, I have a choice to make and I'm comfortable with questioning my initial thinking on this, which is to not disturb seasoned competitors with warnings. Why not try to understand how the competitor feels on this issue?

As the NROI states in the RO creed: "It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals" and "I shall exercise due consideration for the personal emotions of any competitor, and shall act in a manner so as not to embarrass or disturb the competitor any more than is absolutely necessary."

Safety is served by either a warning or by "Stop". One has far greater consequences to the shooter, but if most shooters would rather not be warned (I'm definitely in that category) then that has to be taken into consideration in deciding how best to handle this, in general terms.

Curtis

Curtis,

I got your point --- you think that surveying competitors will allow you to reach a decision that you'll apply to your future ROing endeavors -- i.e. you won't disturb seasoned competitors with warnings.

I'm coming at it from the opposite end of the spectrum: I have no pre-programmed decisions in my brain, I let the competitor's behavior dictate what comes out of my mouth. I could be running someone who's got twenty years in the game, and never utter anything other than the usual range commands, or I could see that same shooter lose their mental way, become disoriented, have a jam, be working on trying to clear the jam while remaining unaware of their orientation in the bay, and I might need to react with "Muzzle!"

In my opinion it's not an either/or or an experienced vs. inexperienced competitor situation. Rather my use of warnings is dictated by competitor behavior during the stage. I can't remember the last time I needed warnings during a "perfect" run on a stage....

I can remember a few warnings I've issued during runs where the competitor was having issues already....

You're experienced. You've blown your plan. Your gun malfs. You're trying to clear it, focused on the gun approaching the 180 repeatedly. Do I better serve you (or any competitor in the match) by letting you break it, or by giving you a warning? I have time --- you've gotten close, haven't broken it yet, but it's clear to me that you're focused on the gun, not on the 180.....

[BayouSlide]

Curtis,

I got your point --- you think that surveying competitors will allow you to reach a decision that you'll apply to your future ROing endeavors -- i.e. you won't disturb seasoned competitors with warnings.

Nik, if that's what you think, I still don't believe you've got my point...but probably because I'm not expressing myself very well. I don't believe in making decisions of any sort by poll numbers, least of all match officiating. I respect the job too much for that.

But I was interesting in re-examining my personal views on this issue with an eye towards improving my abilities as an RO. It doesn't really matter where the numbers fall, although that's always interesting in a horse race sort of way.

What I find useful are insights and observations on this issue offered by you and the other people who have posted in this thread. I've old enough to have passed through that stage in life where I think I know all the answers. And I'm always eager to learn something from better minds than my own.

I truly appreciate your observations here and recognize their value.

Curtis

[Carmoney]

I've never heard "muzzle" or "finger" yelled by any well-known, experienced, nationals-level range officer--and I shoot a lot of big matches. As a previous post indicated, it's almost always done by new ROs who have recently transitioned over from a different game that uses different commands.

As a wheelgunner, I routinely have to plan my stage approach in ways that come pretty close to the 180 line, in order to maximize my effectiveness with only 6 rounds in the gun at a time. I won't cross the 180 line, so unless I commit a true safety violation as defined under the rulebook, I expect the ROs to keep quiet during my run.

[Carmoney]

New shooter at level one match only, (which isnt a poll choice) but does seem to be the consensus. You could also make a case that it is unfair coaching, yes I know the rule but look at it this way, shooter A aproaches the 180 RO yells "Muzzel" shooter doesnt break 180 keeps on going, Shooter B steps to the line does the same thing but no warning breaks 180 and DQ's,

This is a very good point, and one I had not thought of. Those advocating all the RO warning chatter should think carefully about Joe's point before they say anything more.

[markcic]

I think it is pretty much a binary equation, either the shooter broke the rules or they didn't. If they did then the correct command is stop, if not it is silence. If someone is close to the 180 they still didn't break it. I would talk to them after they are done shooting about anything they almost did.

[BayouSlide]

New shooter at level one match only, (which isnt a poll choice) but does seem to be the consensus. You could also make a case that it is unfair coaching, yes I know the rule but look at it this way, shooter A aproaches the 180 RO yells "Muzzel" shooter doesnt break 180 keeps on going, Shooter B steps to the line does the same thing but no warning breaks 180 and DQ's,

This is a very good point, and one I had not thought of. Those advocating all the RO warning chatter should think carefully about Joe's point before they say anything more.

I think what fascinates me about match officiating is how what may seem apparent and absolutely correct on one hand, can have unintended consequences on another.

Let me tell y'all a little story about my first and only match DQ. Happened at the second to last stage of my very first match. Was manuvering my way along some targets along the side berm when I went to slide lock. When I shifted the gun in my hand for the reload I was really close to the 180, apparently, and the RO yelled "Muzzle!" I was double-plugged so I didn't know what he was saying to me. I was having neck problems that day: couldn't turn my neck more than a few degrees either way. By now you guessed. Without realizing it, I turned my whole body around to see what the RO wanted...and managed to point my Glock 19, locked back and empty mag in place, right at the RO and the peanut gallery, which parted like I was Moses and they were the Red Sea

Unintended consequences indeed.

Curtis

[Phudd]

I used to be one of those who kept the finger crooked, out and safe, but crooked during reloads/movement. At a sectional match, shooting with the other RO's a particularly loud RO yelled "finger" on me twice on my first stage. Really rattled me and completely broke my concentration. He counseled me afterward that he had done me a favor by not DQing me. I thanked him as, at that point, I was not so sure that he wasn't right. He does it again one the next stage. Pretty sure he was wrong that time. On the next stage I asked my daughter to grab the scoresheets (she is an RO as well) and watch my finger like a hawk. He did it again. My daughter confirmed that my finger was indeed well clear when it was supposed to be. For the remainder of the match I tried to put myself right before him in the stack. No more problems.

Since then I have tried to extend my finger along the slide. As an RO, I have learned to appreciate people who make it easy to call.

I think I'd rather get a bogus DQ than have someone barking over my shoulder.

On another occasion I stopped a shooter because I it looked like he was going to sweep his feet on a reload. He froze, never actually sweeping himself. After ICHDH, I explained why I had stopped him, then gave him a reshoot. I figured that I had done my job. I prevented him from doing something dangerous and also kept him from DQing.

[ebg3]

As a shooter, I don't want to hear any distractions/warnings from anyone. If I break a rule, finger or 180, I expect to be called on it and DQ'd.

[ima45dv8]

At local matches where we frequently have new-ish shooters, or when I see a not-so-new-ish shooter looking like their focus has slipped, I'll give a warning if it seems right at that moment. At Level II and above matches, I don't do warnings.

**Confession: After all this time with a timer in my hand, I still have a tendency to yell "Whoa!" first. I quickly follow that with "Stop!", but that Whoa has a mind of it's own. Too many Saturday morning Westerns as a kid is what I'm thinking.

[davecutts]

Shut up until the shooter makes a DQable error. How can an R.O. tell if the shooter is new or not? I've seen plenty of new guys who were paranoid safe, and dudes who have shot for five plus years reload with a finger in the trigger guard. My first thought on reading the poll was if the RO "warns" me he and I are going to speak about it after I'm clear, but pondering on it while typing if you are ROing me I'm probably so focused on the stage that anything other than stop (and that you'll have to say a few times) will be completely ignored.

[Doug H.]

As I have said earlier, I try never to give warnings at big matches. At one 3 gun match earlier this year, a well know NW shooter had advised everyone not to shoot one of the props (it was placed so you had to shoot around it and was made of sheetmetal). On his turn, after the third shot went through the prop (missing the 100 yd plate rack he was shooting at and while the rounds walked up towards the top of the berm) I yelled "PROP". He was startled and looked back at me. Then I yelled "you're shooting the prop". The light came on and he adjusted his stance and continued.

Doug

[Hank Ellis]

Curtis;

Remember the stage at Gator a year or two ago where you started seated in a car, retrieved the gun from the glovebox, engaged targets out the left and right windows and around the doorpost? Yeah, that one.

I've used that same stage as an example in talking to people about this issue. The "Muzzle!" warning startled me because I knew I had an adequate safety margin, and hesitated, wondering what was going on until I regained my concentration. Admittedly, it doesn't take much to break my concentration when I'm shooting.

And I agree with you completely: it absolutely depends. The skill level of the shooter can also shift the balance in that decision one way or the other. I'm more concerned with a new shooter moving too quickly towards 120 degrees than somebody with solid skills pushing 165. But I'll continue to watch them both like a hawk

Here's another way to look at it.

If you've got any classification at all you've done stand and deliver as well as your generic start here and run downrange there stages. On something like this giving a muzzle to TGO would probably be inappropiate and giving one to the guy who just got his D card might be.

But if the stage is out of the ordinary like the car stage then its a different set of circumstances. How many shooters have done this more than once? Not that many. In this case nearly every shooter is a rank newbie and should be watched like a hawk. The increased use of warnings in this case is warranted. Gee you got one, I got one and we're probably a couple of the more conservative shooters around locally. As I said before, it depends.

A couple mentioned that at L2 matches and above there are no warnings. Don't have a problem at all with that.

[BayouSlide]

A couple mentioned that at L2 matches and above there are no warnings.

Remember, that car stage with all the "Muzzle" warnings was at the Gator Classic, which is a Level II match. I agree with watching everyone like a hawk to keep things safe, and the CRO on that stage was certainly doing so. Whether he was too liberal with the "Muzzle" warnings is not for me to judge. He was doing his best to run a safe stage and he did so.

Might I run a similar stage differently? Perhaps, but I also would do whatever I could to make sure things were safe, based on the competitors actions and the stage. On these sorts of stages it may be more productive to caution the squad as a whole in the briefing of the potential DQ trap.

Curtis

Edited: to add another thought

Edited September 23, 2009 by BayouSlide

[MoNsTeR]

I'm much more open to "Muzzle!" than "Finger!". I think we all have a visceral sense of what it's like to see a muzzle approach The Line, but I don't have a similar sense for finger-in-the-guard. I think your finger is either in, or it isn't, and there's little possibility of anticipating when that offense is about to happen. I think the cases I've seen where "Finger!" has been yelled should all have been DQs, and the ROs were simply giving in to their natural hesitance to ruin a fellow shooter's day.

For my part I don't want any warnings, so I voted "Distracting".

[vluc]

I used to call "muzzle" occasionally (did one this year AAMOF), but after reading these posts, see things in a whole different way, and won't do it anymore. It might not distract me as a shooter, but it apparently can to others, and that's enough.

Never thought of it as a distraction, anymore than the RO who DQ'd me at the VA-MD Sectional several years ago yelling "freeze" multiple times was a distraction. I heard the words, knew what he was probably meaning, but given the tone and strident nature of his call, chose to stop. Could have made an issue with the inappropriate command, but knew he believed I must have done something to get such a tone! Nothing good ever happens on a re-shoot and nothing did there! Says I broke the 180 on a reload, so there you have it. I was in good company, 5 or 6 folks sent packing for a similar offense on different stages. My first and hopefully my last.

Good points raised. Nice to get a different perspective and see the potential error of one's ways!

[LPatterson]

I don't think warnings should be used above Level I matches and not at all for Level III matches.

My reasoning: 10.5.5 "Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in accordance with Section 8.5."

8.5.1 "Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (See Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the finger visibly outside the trigger guard ....".

Appendix A3 Movement "Taking more than one step in any direction.....".

Scenario: Shooter is transitioning between targets, arms extended in an aiming configuration but targets are not available, takes 2 or 3 short shuffle steps, do I try to yell "Finger" before the shot? According to the rules this is a DQ so why should I yell "Finger" first.

Another Scenario: Shooter takes a target, makes a step and realizes they had a mike or noshoot, turns back to 85 degrees and shoots, do I try to yell "Muzzle". If I did and that shooter stopped and looked back with a WTF look, now what? An arb is probably going to lose because warnings are allowed so my yelling might cost them a match or class win.

Leave warnings at the beginner level and after a few matches if they screw up send them home.

[XD Niner]

At local matches where we frequently have new-ish shooters, or when I see a not-so-new-ish shooter looking like their focus has slipped, I'll give a warning if it seems right at that moment. At Level II and above matches, I don't do warnings.

I'm with Mark and similar posts with regard to this issue. New shooters especially are just learning and can often use some coaching in this area. I strongly suspect most of the experienced shooters that are there every match would find this a distraction. Competitors at Level 2 and 3 matches are almost always experienced shooters. However, if there was a very unusual situation such as the shooting and reloading position in a car described above or an easily broken 180 position I would highlight it at the conclusion of the stage briefing.

Edited September 24, 2009 by XD Niner

[DarthMuffin]

As an RO I'd rather give a warning than a DQ, and _definitely_ would rather give a warning than have an actual safety-related accident that could have happened. Not on my watch

However, above level I matches I don't think it's appropriate. At a local match I'm happy to get a tip if I were to start to get sloppy somewhere. At a L2 or higher, let me succeed or fail on my own.

Of course, if it distracts you as a shooter you can always ask the RO not to give warnings, just to DQ you after the safety violation occurs. Every RO I know would be cool with that, especially since you've made it clear you understand the consequences.

[Kulas]

I voted "distracting". Also, if the shooter has a bad relationship with the RO for that stage (for some reasons that are not worthy of mention), the RO could abuse his discretion by issuing a lot of muzzle and finger warnings again and again like what happened to me at a local match last month. At a stage where the RO in charge was a previous friend(but not anymore before that match), the stage was set up so that the shooter would have to reload while moving uprange and stop at a window to shoot 3 paper targets one which you have to shoot at approx. 170 degrees. I'm right handed. And while reloading and moving towards the window to my right/rear the RO was shouting "MUZZLE!" about 3 to 4 times. Muzzle was pointed downrange and angle was less than the angle I would have while shooting at the paper targets at which point he stopped issuing warnings. I was distracted so many times with so many warnings of finger and muzzle but no DQ. I did not complain because it was his discretion to issue such warnings. But I would rather be DQ'ed and be done with it.