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Shotgun patterns for sporting clays?


John E

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Hi guys!!

I am fairly new to the sporting clay situation and frankly I am confused at the optimum sporting clays patterns. I can understand why a trap gun would shoot a much higher percentage of the shot above the horizontal. I am currently thinking of buying a Browning Citori Special Sporting Clays Edition 12 ga., but when I patterned it yesterday, it was about 95% above the horizontal and well centered. I also patterned my Verona LX680 and it was probably 30% below and 70% above the horizontal. I would think this configuration would be better for sporting clays whereas the Browning seems to me to be basically a trap gun with sporting clays written on the side.

I would LOVE to have some illumination from the more knowledgable shooters out here.

Thanks!!

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Shotgun patterning is also influenced by "how" the shtgun fits you. The length of pull of the stock, the rib design, the comb, etc. impacts point of impact - that is one reason why some shooters install an adjustable comb.

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Hi guys!!

I am fairly new to the sporting clay situation and frankly I am confused at the optimum sporting clays patterns. I can understand why a trap gun would shoot a much higher percentage of the shot above the horizontal. I am currently thinking of buying a Browning Citori Special Sporting Clays Edition 12 ga., but when I patterned it yesterday, it was about 95% above the horizontal and well centered. I also patterned my Verona LX680 and it was probably 30% below and 70% above the horizontal. I would think this configuration would be better for sporting clays whereas the Browning seems to me to be basically a trap gun with sporting clays written on the side.

I would LOVE to have some illumination from the more knowledgable shooters out here.

Thanks!!

Talk with Claudio at Briley and tell him I sent you and he can point you in the right direction, those guys are great over there.

Sean

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Thanks to both of you for offering some help. I have wondered about the adjustable recoil pad but had never considered that as a way to get the shotgun to pattern differently. I recently had my shotgun, the Verona, fitted by Mr. Dan Lammers, who is considered to be among the best in our area (Phoenix). The Browning is not fitted to me (yet) but it does measure out very closely in the drop at heel, drop at comb, total length, balance point, etc.

I was talking to someone last night and he tried to explain that changing the chokes could help achieve the pattern I was seeking. I am still struggling to make sense of that. I can understand how changing the chokes could cause a wider dispersion of the shot, but it would seem to me that the Browning would still pattern higher. Getting it fit would make more sense to me. Please help me to understand where I am missing this point.

I will call Briley when they open. Thank you so much for the recommendation!!

What is achieved when someone has the barrels on their shotgun bent? Is this designed to effect the patterning?

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My bad. You said adjustable comb, not recoil pad. My Verona does have the adjustable comb, but for me it needs to be as low and close to the stock as possible. In fact, when it was fit, the gunsmith took almost half of the material off that to get it to fit.

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Point of impact is a personal thing, but sporting guns are usually set-up to shoot flatter than trap guns. A guy I know that has recently placed in the top five at the nationals many times shoots a K-80 set to throw a 50-50 pattern. The problem with sporting is course setters are going nuts with the dropping targets and chandelles, which never calls for a high pattern.

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I'd probably pattern test them again just to make sure. Particularly since one of the guns was fitted, and it doesn't sound like you asked for 70/30?

Try multiple shots to make sure your hitting the center of the pattern(dot) to determine the proper pattern height. It's easy to 'flub' a pattern test trying to shoot it like a rifle...it really is!!

If it's done properly, the 70/30 would be considered "high" for sporting but some shoot sporting(everything) with a trap gun/high stock...individual preference.

60/40 would be more common with 50/50 being the standard of a field/ flat shooting gun.

If you're not sure what you want I'd go with 60/40... or less.

I would consider the Browning at 90% to be unusable for most except the ardent 16 yard trapshooter who really likes to float targets. Again, if you patterned properly and it's that high...don't buy it because it's not produced properly. I doubt you could lower the stock enough to compensate, without ending up looking at the backend of the top lever...not good.

You can "alter" the point of impact with a 'custom' choke tubes to correct a "faulty" barrel and Briley would be the ones to talk to...however, I think you'll find it to be expensive and 'limiting' in choke selection. Basically, they would have to bore the choke tube "off-center" to correct the POI...if I understand it correctly.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with any of that including bending, rechoking/repair, etc on most any gun, with few exceptions of course. One exception might be you have a gun that turns targets to dust on the first barrel, but you can't hit anything with the second barrel. This is a gun you take to bed with you at night. :D That gun you spend the money to fix the second barrel. B)

Good luck.

Edited by Irishlad
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That was very informative. Thanks!

I am still trying to talk to Briley, but in the meantime, I am wondering: How can you possibly know a shotgun will produce a 50/50 pattern without buying and shooting it? I would think that if a manufacturer wanted to truly produce a Sporting Clays gun, then they would know that 50/50 flat shooting is what the public wants. However, it would appear that is not the standard to which the manufacturers adhere. Are there some guns known for this patterning such that the trial and error method can be avoided?

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How can you possibly know a shotgun will produce a 50/50 pattern without buying and shooting it?

You can't really, but "quality" guns should be properly regulated within reason. But, it can happen. It's usually more of a problem if it shoots right or left.

And, a gun that shoots 50/50 for me, may not for you. So, within "reason".

So, quality guns that I'm familiar with that should shoot to POI would be Browning/Beretta and up!

But, again small variances are okay and common I "suspect" given the nature of a shotgun pattern. 90-95% high on a sporting gun would be too much. If I bought it new, I'd send it back.

How much space do you see between the mid and front bead?

Edited by Irishlad
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I am leery when I here the P word. Lots of confusion about the ways and means....

When I pick up a shotgun I want to know where the team, the gun and I, are throwing shot.

Basically I shoulder the gun from a low(er) ready position while looking at a mark on the grease patterning plate. Pull the trigger and repeat a few times. Then saunter down to the plate and see it the shot from the barrel(s) is impacting where I want. I like it to look like one circle centered approx fifty fifty around the mark I focused on. (None of this aiming stuff just look at the mark on the board and fire.)

I might want to pattern a load to see what the shot swarm is doing-shells, chokes, and the like. However this is more of an academic exercise after I am convinced the gun willingly throws shot where I look

Check here for more words. http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/Tech...GunFitting.html

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Again, I tuly appreciate the input.

I pattern from 30 yards, and I fire two shells from each shotgun. I have tried both the "just raise it up and shoot" as well as the "aim it like a rifle" systems, and the results from both shotguns remain at least consistent. I have no space between the beads, and they melt into each other on both guns. Again, both guns are within probably less than 1/2 inch of any measurements, so the are essentially identical.

That said, I did shoot again last night, and this time the Browning won the day. I believe, perhaps mistakenly, that the heavier weight of the Browning really helps to smooth out my swing, much as heavier swing-weighted golf clubs help to slow down and smooth a golf swing.

The chokes in my Verona are both Improved Cylinder, while the Browning has a Skeet and a Modified. I will stipulate to the chokes not being apples to apples, but I am as yet unwilling to buy chokes for a shotgun that I do not own. However, wouldn't a shotgun that is shooting high still shoot high with only a variance in the pattern?

I will read the article posted with great interest later today.

Please keep the great input coming!! And thank you for your efforts so far!!

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John, I have for example, had two different I.C. chokes pattern high or low used in the same gun.

I realize what a pain it would be to have different chokes on hand to try so I guess you need to stick with what you have.

Something that worked for me was to use a tight choke and shoot from no more than 20 yds to get very distinct pattern to see if I am off one way or another.

I have found, using good factory shells that five shots can produce five different looking patterns if you are shooting them at distance.

Hang in there. Most people do not bother to pattern their guns. Your effort to do so will result in more broken targets!

.

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Okay. I have read the article regarding DIY fitting. I find it very insightful, but it would not seem to be that helpful in my situation. I guess I could glean that were I to take the Browning to get it fit from a professional many of these problems could possibly go away. Of course, that is only possible if I were to purchase the Browning. That remains a distinct possibility.

I have a friend who is bringing his Beretta tomorrow night to shoot. Either that will throw me into a complete state of confusion, or it might serve to clear some of this up.

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Here is my two cents worth: You can find a Browning or Beretta(or anyone's), used or new, that will throw a 60/40 or 50/50 pattern at 40 yds. You should not have to spend tons of money and time trying to figure out why a sporting gun shoots 95% high, because they should not shoot that high.

Unless you want to pay for a custom stock fitting, you can do pretty good on your own. Make sure that the length of pull and pitch are correct for you. Once you decide on that, any decent gunsmith can grind a pad to fit complete with spacers pitched to your specs., usually for under 40 bucks labor.

I hope you find a gun you like soon.

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That is more along the lines I was thinking, and I did not want to make another mistake getting involved with a shotgun that is not doing it's part. I know that I can learn to shoot sporting clays with some degreee of accomplishment, but I don't want to have to overcome a flaw in the shotgun. I would prefer the gun adapt to me rather than I have to adapt to the gun. Therefore, based on the wise counsel here, I think I will have to pass on the Browning I am currently considering.

That said, does anyone have any great input on a Browning 525 Sporting? Is it a common problem among the Brownings to shoot a little high, or is this an anomaly?

Thanks again for all the help!!

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  • 2 weeks later...

For anyone still following this thread:

I had a fascinating conversation with Browning's Customer Service and was told the following:

Browning only has two types of rib styles, the High Post Rib and the Low Post Rib. The Low Post Rib would be the one that does not rise at all from the receiver to the end of the barrel. Any Citori that has a high post rib would be considered a trap gun, while the skeet, sporting, clays and field guns will have the flat, low post rib.

Further, any Citori designated as a Trap gun will shoot a 70/30 pattern. Any Citori designated as a Skeet or Sporting model will shoot a 60/40 pattern. Finally, any field gun will shoot a 50/50 pattern.

I wish I had this information before I started this thread, but I am absolutely grateful for the all the assistance.

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  • 4 months later...

What is achieved when someone has the barrels on their shotgun bent? Is this designed to effect the patterning?

The only think you achieve when you bend a set of barrels is that you ruin the barrels. Where the gun patterns is a result of how the stock fits you. If the comb is too high the gun will pattern high, if the comb is too low it will shoot low (unless it's really low and you end up popping your head up to see where you are shooting... then it will be high).

Call Briley... they used to have a stock bending rig that worked with IR and was pretty slick.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I use to shoot a ton of skeet and liked a gun that shot about 70/30. I always liked being able to see the target better so I liked being under it. With a 50/50, I was wasting alot of the pattern below the target. In sporting, If the target is going straight up and requires verticle lead your covering it up no matter what pattern your throwing unless it shoots low. On those its best to shoot it when it peaks.

The rib has an effect on how the gun shoots as well. It works as a system, the rib/bead is the front sight, the eye/comb the rear. With some of the trap ribs especially, you cant lower the comb enough to make it shoot flat and see over the rib. while it dosent apply to a browning, the barrel hangers on certain guns also effect the POI for the bottom barrel.

Edited by EkuJustice
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  • 4 months later...

Hey John I like a 50/50 it seems to work great for me. We shoot the same course and I have great luck shooting a 50/50 pattern out at Rio, be shooting 85 to 95 for a while now on that set up!!

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Bad chokes happen all the time! If the bore of the choke is not concentric to the OD you are basically screwing in a crooked bore, this will account for the difference of point of impact .

An adjustable butt plate does NOT move point of impact, it only puts the butt plate back where it belongs in your shoulder after you get done pushing the gun around to where it fits!

Yhe only way to move the point of impact is to cram you head down into the stock, remove material, raise your head or pad the stock. after you do one of those things you can move the butt plate to where it FEELS right.

Good luck

Mildot

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An adjustable butt plate does NOT move point of impact, it only puts the butt plate back where it belongs in your shoulder after you get done pushing the gun around to where it fits!

Yhe only way to move the point of impact is to cram you head down into the stock, remove material, raise your head or pad the stock. after you do one of those things you can move the butt plate to where it FEELS right.

Re: An adjustable butt plate not moving the POI... I agree - but it's worth mentioning that this is only the case if after moving around the butt plate, the stock still welds to your cheek in exactly the same place.

Shooting with a ribbed shotgun, your eye is for all intents and purposes the "rear sight"... so, for example, if your eye moves "higher" (in relation to the rib/front sight), then your POI will be higher as well.

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Bad chokes happen all the time! If the bore of the choke is not concentric to the OD you are basically screwing in a crooked bore, this will account for the difference of point of impact .

Sadly enough this problem also to often arise from shotgun barrels not being threaded concentric to the barrel. If you purchase one of the better lines of chokes and it significantly moves your point of impact, there is a good chance that this is the case. You do not always notice it with shotshells but run a slug in the gun at 50 yards and it will be apparent.

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Ok. before I reply I want to make this clear. I am not trying to be arrogant or all knowing, only trying to help here!

The first rule in mounting a shotgun is"bring the gun to you face, not your face to the gun" if we can agree on this I'll go on. If not disregard this post.

For the "normal guy" this means that if you mount it with your eyes closed and see only the back half of the barrel and can't see the front sight (you will never be able to overcome this problem) you need to raise the comb. If you do this the gun will probably sit LOW in your shoulder and if you have an adjustable pad you will need to raise the heel to get it back in the shoulder pocket.

If you see a FLAT barrel rib you need to go to the patterning board and see where it shoots, the ideal would be 50/50 as it would give youy more room to work.

Want 60/40? add a little comb height and raise the butt plate back where it feels good.Or the cheap way is to put more face pressure on the stock, yes you are squezzin your mug down and do you think you can replicate it every time????????

Seeing the front of the barrel way above the reciever?? Go back to the patterning board and see where you are hitting, if it is way high for your taste you will have to lower or remove material from the conb. Move the butt plate to where it is comfortable.

I am still convinced that the butt plate is for no more tham comfort if we are talking up and down pattern location.

Not even going into the cant or windage part of it.

Good luck

Mildot

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