Mo Zee Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I have recently started dry firing with extreme determination and would like some feedback. (Please consider the following scenarios as a right handed person.) 1. When doing reloads which is faster? a. Pressing the mag release button, and tilting the gun to the left revealing the magwell or b. Pressing the mag release button, flicking the gun a wee bit to the right and then turing the gun to the left to reveal the magwell. Personally I have tried both ( in dry fire ) and I have seen that option B is quicker for me. I havent live fired it as yet, hopefully will be done today, and then I might have a positive answer. Are there any Pros and Cons in doing option B? (Edited by Mo Zee at 10:54 pm on Jan. 8, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Zee Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 With regards to dry firing. Is there a good par time to work on. I have worked my par time down to 1.00 on a reload, is this sufficient? My time for a draw from hands on side is currently at .60 Does anyone have an idea if this can be broken. I have tried hundreds of time but just cannot bring it down to under 0.60 This is ofcourse only in dry fire. The real test waits to be seen today. (Edited by Mo Zee at 10:56 pm on Jan. 8, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 The key thing to remember is to try and eliminate all wasted motion. Remember that the timer doesn't lie, although your perceptions of what is fast or slow can often do. You should set a par time to anything that pushes you to hit it. I like to set very hard par times for the first few exercises to see if I'd made any improvement. After that I go to a sort of warm-up and work my way down again. In regards to trying to beat a .6 draw. IMHO you'd be better served by working on getting a good sight picture or dry firing reloads. Other people may be able to offer better advice than I on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 That flick to the right sounds like wasted movement to me. Those are excellent par times, now you can whittle 'em down in hundredths. (.59, .58) What I like about DF is that it give extreme confidence in basic gunhandling skills. Keep on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 There's a thread about reloads and the 'flick' somewhere. Todd teaches it as a reliability improvement, not a speed improvement. The empty crashing into the new mag is no fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 It is hard to get a new mag in if the empty mag is still in the gun. The more movement argument doesn't make sense with a reload, since you can hit the button flick your wrist much faster than it takes you to grab the mag and bring it up with the weak hand. If your empty mag always clears the gun before you get the new one in I wouldn't imagine that you would need the flick, but if you EVER have mags that hang up, I think it would be wise to flick the wrist and get that mag out. 1 hung up mag will cost you A LOT more time than any time you (might) save not doing it. A consistant 1 second reload is good, .6 draw hitting the A zone is very good IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 My first mentor Vern Walker (he pokes in from time to time) does the flick. I asked why a long time ago, and his is due to wanting those glock mags outta there on time every time. I've never had a prob with that so I am flickless. I have also focused on hitting that button EARLY in the reload. In fact, I have dropped the mag before the gun cycled before and had an empty pipe with a full mag. Yuck. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 One of the basic keys to shooting fast is economy of motion. Flicking is not economy of motion. Although Jerry B, among others, flick, so its one of those gray areas. I think its better to not do it and add wasted motion. Smooth is fast also. Like Jake said, the timer is the only judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Bill, Can you argue it is faster not to fick if you can flick faster than you can get the mag to the mag well? It is not slower to flick if you do it right. Economy of motion is important, but when there is "empty time" (the time it takes to grab the mag and get it to the mag well) if you fill it with a motion (flicking)you do not lose time. I like to get the mag out faster and flicking does this, but it is not always neccesary. I think it takes more practice to flick right, but I also think you get a more reliable mag change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 How often is raw reload speed important? Does a flick (if done right it's not so much a flick as a tilt, anyway) add anything close to 0.1 second? That's worth what, one and a half points, on a 4 second el-Prez? Consistency and reliability are your friends.. (Edited by shred at 1:03 pm on Jan. 10, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Loves2Shoot I guess I look it as I could also pat the top of my head in that interval too but I don't want any extra wasted motion. Just trying to be funny. EXTRA motion is wasted motion. As I said some do it and are very fast. I can walk up and do 5 1.0X reloads in a row, cold. That's what I am after. Maybe some day it will be .9X but I know I got there by learning the best technique and practicing. Your fastest time really doesn't mean a thing if you can't do it in a match. You should see what I can do grooved in and standing against the backstop. I stand by the credo that extra motion is wasted motion, as an aside in all aspects of shootin too. As Roy said I'll take reliabilty and consistency because that is what wins matches but I disagree with the point that its a just a little bit. At high levels and to win your class or match, EVERYTHING counts. Hey Erik Warren, would you like an extra .10 off all your reloads at the Infinity Open?(sorry Erik just trying to make a point) I shoot my best when everything I do gets me to the shooting in the fastest time and with the easiest effort. That's what economy of motion means to me. As I said before what does the timer say? That's what counts. We are splitting hairs but that's where the win is. Usually. Not sure what you mean about flicking makes a more reliable mag changes. Sticky mags can be fixed before the match. Mine don't stick. I once shot with a guy whose gun locked back so much that he got so good at releasing it, that it was transparent in his shooting. I think that is an extreme example of what I am saying. He learned a wasted movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 I worked the flick out of my reload about a year ago, because I felt it was inhibiting the reliability of my reloads. I want to see the mag coming out of the gun so I can find that sweat spot to look for and need to find to make a dependable reload. When I bobble a reload here and there it's because I wasn't on the sweet spot with my eyes. That said once I've got the sweet spot I can generally look away to move or focus on a target. I have practiced the reload with my eyes closed, and it has helped, but I'm no where as smooth or fast with out looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Bill, The way I do a mag change, the magazine leaves the gun faster if I do a little flick. It is more reliable for me. If I don't flick occationally I get the new mag there before the old one is gone (a fast reload for me is .88-.9), that makes everything bad, so I flick. My only point was that extra motion doesn't ALWAYS mean more TIME in the reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Loves2Shoot If you can pull off .9 reloads then thats all you need. By the way who are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 .9 only after warming up and on 3 yard targets with a wide body. I am not anyone you would know, just a guy from a small town with cold winters. I am shooting a single stack in L10 in one section this year so I have been practicing my ass off on the reload. I have a lot of time to dry fire, now if I could only find somewhere to shoot and MOVE I'd be a happy man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Zee Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 I have now tried both scenarios on the range and although the flicking option is a tad quicker for me I have noticed that it is a bit uncomfortable. I really need to think about it before I actually get it right. I guess with a lot more dry firing and practive I should be able to pull it off. Thanx for the responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Quote: from shred on 1:01 pm on Jan. 10, 2003 How often is raw reload speed important? Does a flick (if done right it's not so much a flick as a tilt, anyway) add anything close to 0.1 second? That's worth what, one and a half points, on a 4 second el-Prez? Consistency and reliability are your friends.. (Edited by shred at 1:03 pm on Jan. 10, 2003) Maaan...I actually had to use a calculator and some head scratching to figure this out. How'd you guys get to spit the numbers out so fast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Goes with the "Stage Hit Factor" thread that's knocking about somewhere. I actually figured it out first for a 6-second El-Prez, which is easy (60 pts, / 6 seconds = 10 pts/second, so 1/10th of 1 sec is worth about 1 pt). Then I got out the calculator to work it out for 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Oh I see, probably a lot of experience will someday make it easier to make rough calulations in the head, eh? Thanks shred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 My take on the whole "to-flick" or "not-to-flick" is pretty simple. For me when I start flicking it really starts to throw my timing off. Sometime you can flick to the point the mag does not drop out consistantly. I would much rather have the open mag well waiting on me than have a full mag waiting on the gun. I also had my mags hard chromed, now they are slicker than snot. But hey, if your a flicker, flick and good flicking :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Do what works for you, individually. Yes, the flick is wasted motion, BUT, Todd does the flick (a little) and it obviously works for him. Everyone here saying not to do the flick, I doubt any of you can match Todd in time or match wins and he does the flick. He's performed .68 reloads, live fire, on demand, directly in front of me. I don't care it you're scratching your nuts between inserting the new mag, if you're doing .68 reloads, you're in and good to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Any one seen the highlights of world shoot XIII , have a look at those top boys in the shootoffs , lots of flicks. Remember you do not want to come up with a fresh mag and ram it into a mag thats comming out of your gun, running into mags is not good fun either. I believe in the flick, get the thing out of the way.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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