help me get my Home Defense /Competiton 20ga right?!

[nkotb]

Hey there,

I'm in the process of trying to put together a shotgun that will serve both as a home defense gun that my wife can shoot, as well as something I could use for 3-gun.

My criteria are as follow:

Needs to have an adjustable LOP

needs to be 20ga (lighter recoil for her, easier to reload shells faster for comp)

needs to be semi-auto

needs to have readily available mag extension tubes (8+1 total)

needs to be highly reliable for both competition and home defense

My initial research has me down to the Benelli M1 20ga and the Remington Sporting 20ga Youth.

Based on your experience and my criteria, which one would you suggest I go with, and what advice would you offer for the build out for comp?

Thanks all,

David

[Jay6]

Hey there,

I'm in the process of trying to put together a shotgun that will serve both as a home defense gun that my wife can shoot, as well as something I could use for 3-gun.

My criteria are as follow:

Needs to have an adjustable LOP

needs to be 20ga (lighter recoil for her, easier to reload shells faster for comp)

needs to be semi-auto

needs to have readily available mag extension tubes (8+1 total)

needs to be highly reliable for both competition and home defense

My initial research has me down to the Benelli M1 20ga and the Remington Sporting 20ga Youth.

Based on your experience and my criteria, which one would you suggest I go with, and what advice would you offer for the build out for comp?

Thanks all,

David

Pretty sure a Remy 1100 in 20 ga. would do what you need.

[M ammo]

Fix your criteria.. one gun might not be the fix for all things.

I know $$$$ does not grow on trees.

12Ga is the way to go. Cost of ammo. Types and availability of ammo.

20 Ga may be fast but, less shot,, less knock-down on plates. = more time shooting, more shots.

Benelli is a good way to go.

Mossberg 930 SPX, and the FN, are all good.

For home, a Rem 870 in 20GA, might do the trick for smaller family members, and the price is right.

Just my 2 cents.

Jim M ammo

[nkotb]

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback... some follow-up thoughts...

I re-load, so 12 vs 20 cost is less of a consideration.

I'm sticking with 20... FWIW, I've read here several times, and tend to agree that the nominal spread difference, and thus margin of error, between a 20 and a 12 is not significant, while recoil, and reload speed can make a difference.

Is there a compelling reason to go with a 1100 over an 11-87 in 20?

No 870, see semi-auto requirement...

What are the thoughts on the Benelli m1 and m2 field?

If I could only get an FN SLPII in 20!

Thanks, keep em' coming!

[BrianATL]

The Benelli is over a pound lighter than the youth Remington. I have both and the weight balance is significantly different. Also the LOP is alot longer on the benelli but that is easily shortened.

[Charles Bond]

The first 1100s in 20 guage were actually 12s that were modified to fire 20s. If you can find one of these, you have the weight of the 12 to absorb the recoil of the 20 and all of the 12 guage accessories fit. Since they are so old now, you might search some pawn shops and find a deal.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I know you are trying to serve 2 purposes here by defending your home and playing 3 gun but you really need to look at what purpose the gun will serve most of the time.

I would guess that as a home defense gun chances are you will do nothing but practice for the intended purpose (if you even do that) and never have to use the gun for its intended purpose which is a home invasion. If your wife ever has to shoot the gun at an intruder the adrenaline rush will make that 12 gauge's kick, size, & noise minimal. Furthermore unless your wife is a regular shooter of guns she isn't going to like the kick of a 20 gauge any less than a 12 gauge during practice. I would venture to bet that she will shoot 5 slugs or buckshot and say that her shoudler has had enough of any shotgun unless you choose a 28 gauge or 410.

From the 3 gun perspective you will be practicing and using the gun regularly for its intended purpose. So go with what will work best for the 3 gunning which is a 12 gauge Benelli. The used M1 will save you a few bucks over an M2 and you won't know the difference between the two guns.

To specifically address the criteria you set forth above here are my thoughts.

"Needs to have an adjustable LOP" I see where you are going here with the gun fitting both you and your wife but this will be a tough one to meet. I like the Knoxx Spec Ops Adjustable stock for this purpose but they don't make on for a Benelli and you can't use the recoil reduction action in 3 gun. You could buy two different stocks. One for your 3 gunning and one for home defense that fits your wife and is adequate for you too.

"needs to be 20ga (lighter recoil for her, easier to reload shells faster for comp)" See my comments above. The lighter recoil may be a necessity for your wife during practice but in a real life home defense scenerio you will want the 12 gauge and the recoil won't matter. What you can do is practice with mostly reduced rcoil slugs, buckshot, & shot. This will help both you and your wife enjoy shooting the gun if you really plan to shoot it enough to get good with it. Don't usa all reduced recoil loads during practice though as you will want your wife to know what the real deal feels like too. So she isn't suprised when she cracks off a round causing her to drop the gun in pain during a home invasion.

In regards to the easier to load shells for competiton portion of this cirteria, have you tried to stick your thumb into a 20 gauge? If you can you got some small thumbs buddy. I am 6' tall and weigh a bit over 200 lbs (how much is a bit?) and my thumbs don't even fit into the bottom of a 12 gauge much less a 20 gauge. To make any gun more reloader freindly you will want to bore out the loading area of the gun with a dremmel tool or have a professional make it bigger for you which is what I did (thanks again Kurt! My thumbs appreciate your dremmel wizardry)

"needs to be semi-auto" This I agree on. Unless you are going to shoot heavy metal you will have to have an auto.

"needs to have readily available mag extension tubes (8+1 total)" Most guns for either purpose will have this option avaliable form several manufacturers.

"needs to be highly reliable for both competition and home defense" You can't beat a Benelli for competition reliability (let the arguement begin). For home defense most auto loaders out there are going to suit you reliability needs and then some.

I think you are trying to rationalize buying that Benelli that you really want for competiton by telling your wife and yourself that it will serve two purposes. Quit lying to yourself and just buy the Benelli and use it for both purposes now. Search the pawn shop and local gun show scene and find a dirt cheap 20 gauge auto later on for home defense if you realy feel the 20 gauge will help make your wife want to shoot the gun more or be less afraid of the gun shoudl she have to shoot it during a home invasion.

Edited September 8, 2009 by jtischauser

[Filishooter]

I've been shooting a 20 gauge 1187 youth in 3 gun for 2 years now. I think it offers more bang for the buck vs the Benelli. I picked mine up new for $475 and modified an EZLoader to fit and added a Choate extension. Total investment under $600. Even less if you can find a good used gun. I went with the 1187 because it can take 3" shells thinking I may need some extra shot/power for the long shots but have never needed it. 7/8ths loads takes down everything. The biggest advantage is that I can fit 4 or 5 shells in my hand while weakhand loading vs 3 for the 12 gauge. it is also lighter and swings faster than the 12.

I would also have no problem trusting this gun for Home Defense. Massad Ayoob praised the 20 gauge for home defense and said that one shot of buck from a 20 would equal 2 simultaneous hits of a 44 magnum. As mentioned above, the short length (youth model stock and barrel) and light weight make it very handy.

It wasn't too long ago that "reduced recoil 12 gauge" MEANT a 20 gauge.

[LPatterson]

God forbid that your wife would have to use it for home defense but if she did a prosecutor would treat your purpose built 3 gun shotgun the same way as Winchester's Black Talon's were treated before they were replaced with LE only Ranger's. Do both of you a favor and buy a gun to fit her and a different one for you to play with.

[Filishooter]

God forbid that your wife would have to use it for home defense but if she did a prosecutor would treat your purpose built 3 gun shotgun the same way as Winchester's Black Talon's were treated before they were replaced with LE only Ranger's. Do both of you a favor and buy a gun to fit her and a different one for you to play with.

The gun was "purposely built" for legal sporting competition, not for shooting at bad guys? Would it be her fault if it happens to be the first gun available to her to use in SD? As you said...God forbid.

And what about all of those purpose build home Defense shotguns available straight from the factory? The Mosberg "Defender" or the Winchester "Defender", Rem "Police" etc. let alone those evil black rifles. Should everyone ditch those in favor of single shot "Quail Hunter" models so it looks good in court?

Edited September 8, 2009 by Filishooter

[nkotb]

Some good feedback fellas!

let me put some things back out there...

I do like the older 1100's with the heavier 20 on a 12 frame will improve perceived recoil - the drawback being no 3" shells - which brings me back to the 11-87 Sporting Youth in 20. Are there any off-setting concerns I should know about with the latter?

Brian, you mentioned having both and them, and their balancing differently... would you share with us how yours are set up and what you like, dislike about each?

Jesse, you do bring up some good points. I think the primary utilization answer is easy, as I hopefully will be at many more competitions, rather than home invasions. While i agree that having a 12 feels better mentally in a HD situ. I think it's just that, a feeling... If I or she misses with either gauge, it'll still be a miss, and if we hit, well the BG should be similarly demotivated. If you can't tell, I'm fairly stuck on a 20, and getting it set up well, rather than moving to a 12. FWIW, I have a Beretta Silver Mallard in 12, so it's not like I am anti-12 nor anti-Benelli familia. I just like the idea of a 20 for comp and HD and would like to execute it well.

As to my state of denial, I think you present an excellent assumption with the dual-use justification - which I may yet employ, but alas, If I were to go 12, it would be an FN SLP or an SX2. I'm just not sold yet on the value niche that Benelli presents - hence why I bought a Beretta in the past. Let's just say I have more Land's End shirts than Polo shirts, and I make this analogy with no disdain for the latter, just that I prefer the value presented by the former.

Thanks all, keep the thoughts a flyin'

Edited September 8, 2009 by nkotb

[kellyn]

God forbid that your wife would have to use it for home defense but if she did a prosecutor would treat your purpose built 3 gun shotgun the same way as Winchester's Black Talon's were treated before they were replaced with LE only Ranger's. Do both of you a favor and buy a gun to fit her and a different one for you to play with.

As a full time persecutor, I mean prosecutor, I would say that that "might" happen not that it "would" or "shall" happen. It would greatly depend on the facts of the case and your specific jurisdiction. That being said, let's keep this on the path of competitive shotgun shooting not self-defense, which is not the objective of this forum.

Nothing wrong with a 20 but I don't think they rise to the level of a 12 gauge when shooting steel.

[halogrinder]

uh, saiga 12 gauge for you, 20 gauge for her.

almost unlimited ways of setting them up.

[nkotb]

Thanks Kelly. Well said.

Let me also add for the contributors, Please know that I am not so obtuse that I would not consider real mechanical or market advantages of one brand/model/set-up over another and then change my mind based on rational differences in mechanics, physics, durability or market availability of components. I am however, not apt to follow the herd blindly. I'd like to be an educated bovine, if I do go the popular way.

So please, honor me with your counsel, if, in your experience and wisdom, you've come to see that one brand/model/set-up's mix of strengths and compromises are more compelling than the trade-offs I'd come to face with with an alternative brand/model/set-up. Just please spare me from the subjective, me-too, I'm happy so you'll be happy arguments, if they're devoid of any objective foundations. Thanks ya'll!

[Filishooter]

which brings me back to the 11-87 Sporting Youth in 20. Are there any off-setting concerns I should know about ...

The 1187 Youth Sportsman has a plastic trigger assembly where an older "wingmaster" 1100 20 is metal. The metal finish on the Sportsman line sucks. Its like a fake parkerized finish. I think its just blued over a rough beadblasted metal if I'm not mistaken. That being said, it works just fine from light 7/8ths loads to #3 buck to slugs. The barrel length at 21" is about perfect lining up just short of an 8+1 extension. With an external choke its even.

You'll absolutely need to add/modify an EZLoader to work with it to be competitive. I narrowed and shortened mine and it hasn't failed yet. if you get a full frame 20 it will fit like the 12 gauge. I also opened up the loading port. A 3GG 7-shot sidesaddle fits. Nordic and Choate make extensions.

I'm not sure if Remington still makes the youth sportsman? I think its been replaced by the "Compact Sportsman" which may suite your needs better. it comes with an adjustable LOP kit, a "SuperCell" recoil pad and a slight cosmetic redesign of the stock.

[halogrinder]

Thanks Kelly. Well said.

Let me also add for the contributors, Please know that I am not so obtuse that I would not consider real mechanical or market advantages of one brand/model/set-up over another and then change my mind based on rational differences in mechanics, physics, durability or market availability of components. I am however, not apt to follow the herd blindly. I'd like to be an educated bovine, if I do go the popular way.

So please, honor me with your counsel, if, in your experience and wisdom, you've come to see that one brand/model/set-up's mix of strengths and compromises are more compelling than the trade-offs I'd come to face with with an alternative brand/model/set-up. Just please spare me from the subjective, me-too, I'm happy so you'll be happy arguments, if they're devoid of any objective foundations. Thanks ya'll!

saiga all the way for me:

cheap.

reliable.

easy to mod. attack with welder/grinder

lots of mods for it.

tailor it for each use.

my S12 runs a shark brake/ galil front hand gard, G3 H&K sights, AK47 FCG/pistol grip assembly, and a ACE rear trunion/"pig nose" and sports one of their ultra duty collapable stocks...... so you can bust doors from one side, or scewer hot dogs with the other side

S12 ImO are VERY easy on the shoulder, and with a mid length compensater and light 00 buck loads, your wife can easily shoot it.

[nkotb]

Correct on the Remington being now an 11-87 Sportsman Compact...

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms...t_sportsman.asp

I can't tell if the trigger assembly is plastic on this new model as well. That's a good point to favor the older 1100. The finish now is referred to as "matte black metal".... I wonder what it really is?

Gotcha on the extension and the EZ Loader and loading port. Thanks!

Good points on the Saiga....Honeslty, I'm still wrapping my traditional mind around the idea of a shotty with a AK clip... Thanks for the set-up recs, and I really am trying to see it as an option!

DD

Edited September 8, 2009 by nkotb

[BrianATL]

Really need to know how much gun your wife can handle to make a good decision. Some of these guns being mentioned are to heavy for some women to readily handle. The fit of the shotgun (LOP, weight, balance) are the keys to fitting a shotgun for females as a rule.

[nkotb]

So I think she could handle 20 ga, mid-length, mid-heavy wt frame.

Edited September 8, 2009 by nkotb

[smokshwn]

In becomeing the educated bovine that you want to become here is an angle that has not yet been discussed.

Although, it may be argued that there are some minor advantages to the 20ga. shotgun, the fact that so few are successfully running it is a detriment to itself. The volume of knowledge, assistance, parts, etc is extremely small when you need help at a match with parts or diagnosing problems making the gun run.

In my experience it is nice to be running a platform that is the choice of the herd due to the fact that there are so many in the herd that can offer assistance when you need it.

[nkotb]

Good point. I think I just let a little moo slip out...

Edited September 8, 2009 by nkotb

[HarryO45]

I have a 11-87 in 20ga. and a 1100 in 12ga. I use the 1100 (12) in three gun, and although i installed a easy load gate - it can still be difficult to reload...i am sure i need a lot more practice. That said - In the three gun matches (that i shoot) there is a lot more time reloading than shooting - just a consideration. But i love my Remingtons - easy to mod. i think they (Remy) are heavier than some other models out there. But they go bang almost all the time...keep the rings clean - lubed and fresh. two cents from a rookie

[TRUBL]

20ga vs 12ga.......been gone over before, many times.

Many reasons why the 20ga isn't used much

1) no equipment made to support the 20ga.

2) guys have big hands...hard to load the 20ga

3) not as much knockdown as the 12ga

4) no one uses them, why should I

In answer to the above:

1) There is lots of stuff made for the 20ga (especially extension tubes), and alot of the stuff made for 12ga can be used with the 20ga. (shell holders, bolt handles, bolt release buttons, etc.)

2) you can really cut out the loading area so that a gorilla can shove shells in the tube.....AND....depending how you load, you can A) manipulate the smaller shells easier than a 12 (faster), or grab more shells for loading at each time.

3) Anything a 12 ga can knock down, a 20 can knock down....been proven time and time again. INFACT, due to the taller shot column....it is very probable that the 20ga load for load will knock down harder than a 12ga. Also.....if you miss with a 20ga (because you think the pattern is smaller), you'll probably miss with a 12 ga.

4) more and more people are using them and finding out the benefits......some have tried, and mostly, the bigger handed people have gone back to 12ga.....so yes, if you do have really big hands, stay with the 12ga.

The 20ga, while lighter and easier to weild around.....has about the same recoil as a 12ga....however, it is a sharper recoil and tends to come back on target faster.

Yes, it takes a commitment to stay with the 20ga to make it work for you.....but once you do....you'll find it nicer to shoot than 12ga for 3 gun.

One more benefit.....slugs.....with the Remington 5/8oz slugs, it's pretty easy to double tap ipsc targets under 25yds and make both hits, if a COF calls for that.

As to the Benelli M1/M2 vs the Remington 1100/11-87?...........I use a Benelli, never looked back.

Now....the disclaimer....as much as I like the 20ga......we did just get an FNH SLP in that I am going to do some work with (meaning I will be shooting it in matches for a while) to see if there is any more cool tricks one can do to it to make it load easier and not destroy your thumb (and still be a reliable feeder).

Tim

[ANDYZ]

While its true there are more people shooting 12 than 20, the manual of arms of the 1187 20 is pretty much the same as the 12 only smaller. If someone can help fix a 12, they should be able to figure out the 20. I believe the same is true with a 20 ga M2 vs a 12 ga M2 (same manual of arms). Parts are another issue. But for the low price that I bought my 1187 for, I could buy another identical gun as a backup and still have a fairly low investment. Maybe you could get your wife an 1100 youth and leave it alone and get yourself one to modify for 3 gun. You'll have your comp gun and your wife will have her own gun which you can use as a backup. I think well worn but reliable 1100s go for around $400, maybe less.

Another issue are shells. If you run out you may be screwed as far as borrowing some. I always bring more than enough so if another 20 gauge shooter runs out I can loan some out. We have to stick together!

Edited September 10, 2009 by ANDYZ