XRe Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) 10.2.5 also does not anticipate a situation where the course designer is careless enough to put a prop in a position to be shot up by the competitor. However, it covers other situations enough that the intention should be clear - if the shooter dislodges a stick with his body, its a penalty. If the muzzle blast or "recoil" (someone want to tell me how "recoil" is going to dislodge a stick? ETA - maybe they mean the muzzle flipping up and hitting a stick?) dislodges it, no penalty. The intent is to keep the shooter down below the level of the sticks. It doesn't cover the case where a shooter actually shoots them off, as there's no way to do so from within the tunnel without being DQ'ed (except perhaps in some very strange circumstances) - but the resolution should be clear... REF. Re shoot. Conrad should slap himself once You guys missed the third option, though - shooter continues to shoot and gets no penalty for the sticks being down. If a stick is dislodged in some way other than the shooter bumping it, he continues to shoot the stage and does not get the penalty. This situation is different, though, as the challenge the tunnel presented when the shooter entered it was different than the challenge presented to other shooters.... Still REF. Edited September 7, 2009 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Being on the squad that this happened, I spoke at length with the shooter. We thought if the rules or course description said that a procedural will be assessed for "...any shooter action" that results in the movement of the sticks, this would clarify the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 You can see the stage in Chris' video, at about the 1.35s time hack. That's pretty sporty, Chris. Shooting Open with your Limited rig, and shooting 90% of John! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) Absolutely awesome stages! Nice Job shooting too Chris. JT EDIT: Nice "Open" gun ya got there Chris. Edited September 7, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 RO should have stopped him when the sticks fell before the shooter entered the tunnel as this is a form of range equipment failure just as hitting a support for a plate. Sticks were not longer available as part of the tunnel changing the obstacle presented to the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 stop shooter' give a reshoot RM should make shooting from a place that present a danger to the cooper tunnel sticks a "forbidden action" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 10.2.5 also does not anticipate a situation where the course designer is careless enough to put a prop in a position to be shot up by the competitor. However, it covers other situations enough that the intention should be clear - if the shooter dislodges a stick with his body, its a penalty. If the muzzle blast or "recoil" (someone want to tell me how "recoil" is going to dislodge a stick? ETA - maybe they mean the muzzle flipping up and hitting a stick?) dislodges it, no penalty. The intent is to keep the shooter down below the level of the sticks. It doesn't cover the case where a shooter actually shoots them off, as there's no way to do so from within the tunnel without being DQ'ed (except perhaps in some very strange circumstances) - but the resolution should be clear...REF. Re shoot. Conrad should slap himself once I will take credit or blame for the stage. Although I don't feel it was careless. The 2 hard cover targets were set low just in case someone engaged them from inside the tunnel so not to let a round go over the berm. There should have been a vision barrier before the tunnel so you couldn't see the 2 hard cover targets. I believe everyone overlooked something. That is a comma not a period 10.2.5 "In the tunnel," I believe they mean "In the case of"or "In the situation of the copper tunnel,". As I asked the question before. What about when the competitor knocks off the first stick with his hat. If he hasn't even taken a step into the tunnel yet. The rule book says "In a Copper Tunnel, a competitor who disturbs one or more.............It says nothing about dislodging sticks with you body. Never would have thought that stage would caused so much problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Conrad, what would your call be if a competitor engages a paper target from an unconventional (read unanticipated) location in the COF and one of the rounds traveling towards the paper hits a plate stand dislodging a plate? Clear example of range equipment failure, right? Order a re-shoot and move on, perhaps institute a forbidden action if it's now anticipated that this will be a common occurrence, or perhaps modify the stage and description (if it was the first shooter.) What's different here? Cooper Tunnels confine movement. They're also rickkety in construction by design -- the roof is designed to fall in with minor mistakes. The competitor engaged a legally visible target and his bullets knocked down a couple of slats. I don't know how you couldn't call that REF.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 As I asked the question before. What about when the competitor knocks off the first stick with his hat. If he hasn't even taken a step into the tunnel yet. The rule book says "In a Copper Tunnel, a competitor who disturbs one or more.............It says nothing about dislodging sticks with you body. Conrad, I thinks it's fair to say that overhead material that is dislodged by the shooter's body will incur the appropriate penalties. Having a hat on that body would likewise be the shooter's responsibility. As to your point about the shooter not yet having taken a step into the tunnel, I'd have to rule that any part of the shooters body inside the tunnel, including their hat is inside. I suspect that's why you don't see Micah wear his Chiquita Banana hat on stages that have tunnels. Never would have thought that stage would caused so much problem. It's funny how they quite often do end up as the most controversial stage in a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 Conrad,what would your call be if a competitor engages a paper target from an unconventional (read unanticipated) location in the COF and one of the rounds traveling towards the paper hits a plate stand dislodging a plate? Clear example of range equipment failure, right? Order a re-shoot and move on, perhaps institute a forbidden action if it's now anticipated that this will be a common occurrence, or perhaps modify the stage and description (if it was the first shooter.) OK. Im good with that as an answer. I will change my former stance and would now call for reshoot. Enos forum is great for stuff like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Here's "Recoil or muzzle gases dislodging a stick" (if it comes out of the comp does it count as 'muzzle'?), although that time it came down back on the stand and the whole point was moot. The movie: KatkaAndStick.wmv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 No foul if the comp dislodges one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 As far as the second one I'm gonna argue that "In a Copper Tunnel........What about when a shooter knocks down the first stick with his hat on his way into tunnel. He will most likely be leaning forward so technically he isn't in until his feet are inside the tunnel area. Well, that never happened, so it won't apply to this question, I don't think. And, as you said, there isn't a foot rule that says "in the tunnel". So, I don't know that you can use, "technically he isn't in until his feet are inside the tunnel area", as the standard? BTW, these might be the reasons you haven't seen many Cooper Tunnels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I will take credit or blame for the stage. Although I don't feel it was careless. The 2 hard cover targets were set low just in case someone engaged them from inside the tunnel so not to let a round go over the berm. There should have been a vision barrier before the tunnel so you couldn't see the 2 hard cover targets. I believe everyone overlooked something. I'll take a pile of that responsibilty. I saw that shooters might take those shots. I thought about blocking them off (adding vision barriers). Somebody mentioned that that was a good shooting option, so I left them available. I went ahead and painted the hard-cover on the bottom of those targets (they didn't have the hard cover on them at that point). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) I happen to know the shooter and know he argued for a reshoot cause he was sure he was right, having seen it happen at a major match(twenty years of shooting gets you that advantage). REF is what I said, frankly as I was shooting(I was low on ammo and begging the RO to stop me) and after range clear. I also stated that a reshoot was not a "option" it was required, as in all REF. My reshoot was much faster and no penalties but no time was recorded. Different issue. Oh and I shot over the tunnel just waited one more step to account for being shorter than I thought I was. Edited September 8, 2009 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I happen to know the shooter and know he argued for a reshoot cause he was sure he was right, having seen it happen at a major match(twenty years of shooting gets you that advantage).REF is what I said, frankly as I was shooting(I was low on ammo and begging the RO to stop me) and after range clear. I also stated that a reshoot was not a "option" it was required, as in all REF. My reshoot was much faster and no penalties but no time was recorded. Different issue. Oh and I shot over the tunnel just waited one more step to account for being shorter than I thought I was. Off the point, but I was talking to 45DV8 yesterday and it was my guess that you were the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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