# of rounds for multi-string stages

[SDM]

When shooting a stage with multiple strings, are you allowed to start each string with a full compliment of magazines/speedoaders?

[Steve J]

Two answers here.

Standard exercise: Yes, of course if there are no course description restrictions. A standards stage with multiple stings of fire can exceed 18 required hits within reason, so you may need fresh magazines.

Example: Try shooting stage 3 of the classifier with just 3 magazines loaded to division capacity and a top-off round. When I start stage 3 of the classifer, I place a magazine next to the barrel for the last string and two at my feet to start fresh on string 2. And for those that always want to stretch the point, leaving partial magazines behind between stings of fire in a standards stage does not incur a procedural.

Scenario stage: No. You may have a COF with a reload off the clock and a second start. You would have two times for the stage, but this is not technically two strings. A scenario stage is limited to 18 required hits and two magazines on the belt and one in the gun (and revovler shooters do their thing.)

[Gregg K]

Scenario stage: No. You may have a COF with a reload off the clock and a second start. You would have two times for the stage, but this is not technically two strings. A scenario stage is limited to 18 required hits and two magazines on the belt and one in the gun (and revovler shooters do their thing.)

Not necessarily so. I think it was at the Nationals 2 years ago that they had a 2 string stage with either 21 or 24 rounds, I think it was 24. The rule book may not support it but more than once a COF at the Nationals did not follow the rule book. I quit worrying about it, I just ask what the rules are for that stage on that particular day and shoot it. I can't remember if they allowed you to top off your belt or not.

[Steve J]

Scenario stage: No. You may have a COF with a reload off the clock and a second start. You would have two times for the stage, but this is not technically two strings. A scenario stage is limited to 18 required hits and two magazines on the belt and one in the gun (and revovler shooters do their thing.)

Not necessarily so. I think it was at the Nationals 2 years ago that they had a 2 string stage with either 21 or 24 rounds, I think it was 24. The rule book may not support it but more than once a COF at the Nationals did not follow the rule book. I quit worrying about it, I just ask what the rules are for that stage on that particular day and shoot it. I can't remember if they allowed you to top off your belt or not.

That there is sage advice. I don't care who you are.

[Jane]

A scenario stage is limited to 18 required hits and two magazines on the belt and one in the gun (and revovler shooters do their thing.)

Where are you getting that from, Steve?

The only thing I see in the rule book is a limitation of 18 required hits PER STRING. There's no explicit limitation of the number of rounds for an entire stage, other than the somewhat vague wording on page 50:

Keep the stage or course design within IDPA guidelines. Do not

exceed eighteen (18) rounds per string of fire.

Also stated as per-string on page 18:

CoF 19. No string of fire may exceed a maximum requirement

of eighteen (18) rounds.

This limitation makes sense given the maximum of 31 shots carried by an autoloader shooter or 24 for revolvers.

[Steve J]

A scenario stage is for all intent and purpose a single string of fire. The situation where you have a reload off the clock during a scenario stage yields two times, but not really two strings of fire. Therefore, it's limited to 18 rounds.

I suppose that if you ran the same scenario multiple times, you would then have multiple strings of fire and could exceed 18 rounds, or even have multiples of 18 rounds.

However, in the former no contestant would be allowed to top off his belt with fresh magazines. In the latter he may absolutely have to in order to finish.

[Dan Burwell]

A scenario stage is for all intent and purpose a single string of fire. The situation where you have a reload off the clock during a scenario stage yields two times, but not really two strings of fire. Therefore, it's limited to 18 rounds.

Do you have anything in the rule book to support that point of view? The examples Jane gave are quotations from the rule book and do not seem to agree with what you are saying.

[Chris Christian]

A continuous string of fire under IDPA rules may not exceed 18 rounds, and the competitor is limited to the IDPA limit for carried magazines or speedloaders for that continuous string of fire. Multiple strings of fire within the same stage ( think Standards at IDPA Nationals) are not bound by the single continuous string of fire rules. You top off between strings.... off the clock. Carry as many mags or speedloaders as you need to do that. BTDT at the Nats.

Chris Christian

[Steve J]

A scenario stage is for all intent and purpose a single string of fire. The situation where you have a reload off the clock during a scenario stage yields two times, but not really two strings of fire. Therefore, it's limited to 18 rounds.

Do you have anything in the rule book to support that point of view? The examples Jane gave are quotations from the rule book and do not seem to agree with what you are saying.

What can I say? Jane and I are not disagreeing. The rule book simply does not define some things completely, and there are a number of things de facto in practice that the rule book hasn't caught up with. Current match practice is the IDPA rule book + decisions made at the Nationals + email clarifications from HQ.

A scenario stage is defined in the rule book as a "CoF designed to simulate a real life encounter". It does not specify that it is a single string limited to 18 rounds, but that is the norm and the common practice.

If as in Gregg's example, you have a Vickers count scenario stage that has been made to exceed 18 rounds by using multiple strings, you have defeated the purpose of the 18 round limit on strings of fire. You have defeated the purpose of the 3 magazine and 4 speed loader limit to be carried on your person, and you have defeated the intent of a scenario stage. Let's pause the simulated real life encounter to get fresh magazines, so we can keep shooting with more than the intended number of ammunition carriers.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Steve J

[Flexmoney]

When shooting a stage with multiple strings, are you allowed to start each string with a full compliment of magazines/speedoaders?

My first IDPA match was in Tyler, WV...back when they were getting 70 shooters a match, and some of the IDPA BOD types would shoot there.

The first cof that I shot was multiple strings. First string was a Bill Drill (6 shots). Next was a 2+2+2. And, so it went. The directions had you shoot the gun to empty before reloading. So, the revolver guys got to reload between strings. Autos were on the clock.

[Chris Christian]

There are many things that the Rule Book does not clearly define. But, at some point Common Sense must rear its ugly head. Having shot the last three National Championships I can tell you how it was done on the Standards Stage... which wouldn't be any different from a multi-string COF at any club match. When the string is over you top off, regroup, and shoot the next string with a full load out.

Chris Christian

[Dan Burwell]

What can I say? Jane and I are not disagreeing. The rule book simply does not define some things completely, and there are a number of things de facto in practice that the rule book hasn't caught up with. Current match practice is the IDPA rule book + decisions made at the Nationals + email clarifications from HQ.

A scenario stage is defined in the rule book as a "CoF designed to simulate a real life encounter". It does not specify that it is a single string limited to 18 rounds, but that is the norm and the common practice.

If as in Gregg's example, you have a Vickers count scenario stage that has been made to exceed 18 rounds by using multiple strings, you have defeated the purpose of the 18 round limit on strings of fire. You have defeated the purpose of the 3 magazine and 4 speed loader limit to be carried on your person, and you have defeated the intent of a scenario stage. Let's pause the simulated real life encounter to get fresh magazines, so we can keep shooting with more than the intended number of ammunition carriers.

If I come up with a cool stage that may be over the 18 rounds but could break it up over two stings of fire by the book it is a legal stage, correct?

[Dan Burwell]

So, the revolver guys got to reload between strings. Autos were on the clock.

Dang I think that is the new definition of revolver friendly

[Steve J]

What can I say? Jane and I are not disagreeing. The rule book simply does not define some things completely, and there are a number of things de facto in practice that the rule book hasn't caught up with. Current match practice is the IDPA rule book + decisions made at the Nationals + email clarifications from HQ.

A scenario stage is defined in the rule book as a "CoF designed to simulate a real life encounter". It does not specify that it is a single string limited to 18 rounds, but that is the norm and the common practice.

If as in Gregg's example, you have a Vickers count scenario stage that has been made to exceed 18 rounds by using multiple strings, you have defeated the purpose of the 18 round limit on strings of fire. You have defeated the purpose of the 3 magazine and 4 speed loader limit to be carried on your person, and you have defeated the intent of a scenario stage. Let's pause the simulated real life encounter to get fresh magazines, so we can keep shooting with more than the intended number of ammunition carriers.

If I come up with a cool stage that may be over the 18 rounds but could break it up over two stings of fire by the book it is a legal stage, correct?

Perhaps. If it is a defensive scenario stage, I don't think it would pass approval for a sanctioned match. I still think it kind of violates the intent of scenario stages. Standard exercises with multiple strings of fire are a different animal.

Now, having said that and thought about what you want to do, it would be plausible to have the shooter stage fresh magazines in a desk drawer or something similar, then reload off the clock and refresh his mags before starting the second string and continuing the defensive scenario.

Remember the number one CoF rule.

1. All CoF must either simulate a possible real life scenario or test skills that might reasonably be used in a real life self-defense confrontation. If you cannot honestly say “that could happen,” it probably won’t make a good IDPA stage.

If it doesn't have a plausible scenario and the intent of the second string is only to increase the round count beyond 18, then it doesn't follow the intent of the rules.

[Chris Christian]

Dan.

There is no such thing as a "revolver friendly stage" in IDPA or USPSA.... only "revolver survivable".

Chris Christian

[Jim Watson]

There was a period of time when we were trying to take seriously the pg 41 admonition "HQ urges course designers to draft scenario courses that do not require tac-loads to be performed on the clock." So there were some CoFs written to provide the proverbial "lull in the action" at which you could make a tac-load and get a restart. Although not timed, these were to be performed quickly and there was certainly no opportunity to replentish your magazine carriers. Total round count did not exceed 18, but there were two times recorded.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Jim Watson

[Bill Nesbitt]

My first IDPA match was in Tyler, WV...back when they were getting 70 shooters a match, and some of the IDPA BOD types would shoot there.

The first cof that I shot was multiple strings. First string was a Bill Drill (6 shots). Next was a 2+2+2. And, so it went. The directions had you shoot the gun to empty before reloading. So, the revolver guys got to reload between strings. Autos were on the clock.

Kyle, I remember that match. I still have the results pinned up on my reloading room wall.

As I remember it, revolvers had more reloads to do in the other stages, so it ended up that everybody did the same number of reloads in the match.

Back to the original question. I've seen Robert Ray post or write somewhere that he often has his pockets filled with loaded magazines so he can top off his mag pouches for the next string or stage.

One string of fire is one start. Any other start is a different string. You can have multiple starts (strings) in the same stage as long as no start has more than 18 rounds fired.

[Flexmoney]

I remember it a bit different. lol But, it don't matter.

Good shooting!!

[Dan Burwell]

Now, having said that and thought about what you want to do, it would be plausible to have the shooter stage fresh magazines in a desk drawer or something similar, then reload off the clock and refresh his mags before starting the second string and continuing the defensive scenario.

Remember the number one CoF rule.

1. All CoF must either simulate a possible real life scenario or test skills that might reasonably be used in a real life self-defense confrontation. If you cannot honestly say “that could happen,” it probably won’t make a good IDPA stage.

If it doesn't have a plausible scenario and the intent of the second string is only to increase the round count beyond 18, then it doesn't follow the intent of the rules.

Steve, Sorry I was playing dumb with you, I know full well what the rule book said and it just didn't support your previous statement of:

A scenario stage is for all intent and purpose a single string of fire. The situation where you have a reload off the clock during a scenario stage yields two times, but not really two strings of fire. Therefore, it's limited to 18 rounds.

You had said that so firmly like it was in the rule book so I was just trying to get you and others to actually look in the book read what it says and apply it, not just go by personal opinion or what someone said on the Internet.

You did the exercise admirably, and found how it could be a perfectly plausible stage.

again sorry, I need to stay out of the rules forums

[Steve J]

You did the exercise admirably, and found how it could be a perfectly plausible stage.

Plausible maybe, but it's still impractical and doesn't really follow the intent of IDPA. Many competitors only come with three magazines. I believe firmly that the intent of the rule book is for a scenario stage to be a single 18-round string, and as others have indicated that is the norm in practice. If you want to exceed that in a multiple string standard exercise that's fine, but it's usually limited to once per match.

[Glock3422]

You did the exercise admirably, and found how it could be a perfectly plausible stage.

Plausible maybe, but it's still impractical and doesn't really follow the intent of IDPA. Many competitors only come with three magazines. I believe firmly that the intent of the rule book is for a scenario stage to be a single 18-round string, and as others have indicated that is the norm in practice. If you want to exceed that in a multiple string standard exercise that's fine, but it's usually limited to once per match.

I am looking forward to the "Steve J Practical Shooting Sport," but the rules of IDPA don't support the interpretations recently provided by "Steve J" on at least two web site forums. Please don't misunderstand my words. I don't know Steve J. I don't know anyone who either claims to be, or knows Steve J. I also don't know anyone who believes the opinions presented by Steve J to be supported by the rules. This isn't a criticism of Steve J, it is an observation on his stated interpretation of the rules.

I, like others, would simply like to see a well reasoned explanation, supported by the rule book.

Thanks.

[Steve J]

You did the exercise admirably, and found how it could be a perfectly plausible stage.

Plausible maybe, but it's still impractical and doesn't really follow the intent of IDPA. Many competitors only come with three magazines. I believe firmly that the intent of the rule book is for a scenario stage to be a single 18-round string, and as others have indicated that is the norm in practice. If you want to exceed that in a multiple string standard exercise that's fine, but it's usually limited to once per match.

I am looking forward to the "Steve J Practical Shooting Sport," but the rules of IDPA don't support the interpretations recently provided by "Steve J" on at least two web site forums. Please don't misunderstand my words. I don't know Steve J. I don't know anyone who either claims to be, or knows Steve J. I also don't know anyone who believes the opinions presented by Steve J to be supported by the rules. This isn't a criticism of Steve J, it is an observation on his stated interpretation of the rules.

I, like others, would simply like to see a well reasoned explanation, supported by the rule book.

Thanks.

In my experience at sanctioned matches and at local matches conducted by the IDPA Area Coordinator, scenario stages have always been Vickers count, single strings of fire limited to 18 rounds, occasionally with an RWR off the clock yielding a second time, but still limited to 18 rounds total for the stage. Only multi-string standard exercise stages have ever exceeded 18 rounds total.

What is being suggested here "in accordance with the rules" is that a scenario stage, specifically a scenario stage can consist of multiple strings of fire, each of which not exceeding 18 rounds for an unlimited total number of rounds for the stage. That doesn't sound very much like IDPA to me.

I am done here. I will await some informed responses here > http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/5451

By the way, from what I've been told Glock Talk is better suited for your personal attacks.

[SDM]

From what's been said here, it sounds like the rule book doesn't address the issue and it's going to vary depending on stage designer / MD?

[Steve Koski]

Zacktly.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I ran a stage at a local match once that was a 2 string scenario stage that was over 18 rounds.

The scenario was you and your family stopped at a gas station/7-11 type place. Your family had gone inside while you gassed up the car. Your trunk was open with either loose ammo or extra mags in a shooting bag. You started holding the pump nozzle when several carloads of gang members started shooting up the place. (very possible) You had to fight your way back to the trunk while engaging targets as you moved back toward the trunk and engaged targets from each side of the car.

At this point the time stopped and was recorded. You replenished your ammo supply. Then there was another start where you had to fight your way inside to rescue your family. I think the stage was 30 rounds total. I believe that the stage was well within the principles and rules of IDPA. The only problem was it took longer to run. Shooters were given plenty of time to top off mags if they didn't have enough to continue.