Which shells?

[Mattog22]

I have 2 types of shotshells sitting at my house, which would be better for steel, 1 oz 3 1/4 dram or 1 1/8 oz 3 dram?

[Merlin Orr]

Kinda limited on the information but..... Heavier is better.

[mpeltier]

I personally do not believe steel would know the differance in 1/8 of an ounce. Both will work as long as they cycle the action of your shotgun. Choke selection is more important.

[Mattog22]

I was thinking modified choke. I also thought that 1/8 oz will not matter as much as the increased velocity from 3 dram to 3 1/4 dram

[RiggerJJ]

should be just about the same "effect" on steel. the 1 oz load will go faster than the 1.125 oz load. kinda like comparing 160gn to 180gn 40 cal bullets and their respective loads to equal the same power factor. althou the only way to be sure is crono them and see which is the higher power factor, I would suspect they are about the same.

jj

[LPatterson]

Shot size will be more important than the dram equivalent when trying to knock down steel. 6's are a lot better than 9's.

[Nik Habicht]

I know next to nothing about shooting a shotgun --- but here's what seems to work for me:

I shoot 8s most of the time, and keep a few boxes of 6s on hand for any stages involving steel at ~20 yards or more. At distance the 6's make a difference.....

[Brian Payne]

This is a very interesting topic.

My question would be something like this. 3 Dram load with 1 1/8 oz of shot traveling at around 1300 fps. One shell has #8, the other has #6. You are choked such that the majority of the payload is delivered on target. Would the #6 really be better than #8 or even #9 if you are trying to drop steel poppers, or the newer style steel plates that are replacing clay birds?

Sorry if this is a thread drift, but the topics seemed close enough to warrant this question.

[TonyH]

1 oz. 2 3/4 dram will take down steel.

[Mattog22]

This is a very interesting topic.

My question would be something like this. 3 Dram load with 1 1/8 oz of shot traveling at around 1300 fps. One shell has #8, the other has #6. You are choked such that the majority of the payload is delivered on target. Would the #6 really be better than #8 or even #9 if you are trying to drop steel poppers, or the newer style steel plates that are replacing clay birds?

Sorry if this is a thread drift, but the topics seemed close enough to warrant this question.

I would think that no matter the size of shot it is still 1 1/8 oz of shot hitting steel at 3 dram eq. The only way I would think it could matter is if at long range the 6's hold together more and more of the shot hits the steel opposed to the #8 shot. But I don't know if that is what happens.

[sargenv]

3 1/4 dram - 1 ounce velocity is a nominal 1290 fps

3 dram - 1 1/8 ounce velocity is a nominal 1200 fps

Pattern and shot size would be the deciding factor. I've used both and made marginal hits with both and they will both put steel down. If you are farther away, choke selection, positive feeding and cycling of the gun are the important parts of the equation.

My preferred load is 3 1/4 dram - 1 1/8 oz... whose Nominal velocity is 1255 fps. Kind of a middle ground between the two loads above. Added velocity and pattern density. If I want something with a bit more knockdown I either swap up to a larger pellet, or increase payload, 3 1/4 - 1 1/4, but that also decreases velocity again.. back down to 1220 fps give or take.

Usually if I am worried about knocking over heavy steel, or in some cases we use 6" thick pipes that are about a foot to 16 inches tall, I combine the 1 1/4 ounce load with a modified or full choke and larger pellets. Some argue that 7.5 is the common medium and I can't really make the argument that it isn't provided you use enough choke.

Confusing? yep..

Informative... well that's up to you..

I could likely do up the whole chart.. but most people here are likely to choose one load and buy a pallet of it and they aren't all that worried about pellet hardness, weight of shot (beyond a nominal), and functionality in their gun of choice.

Since I roll my own, I like to think about "Ok, so what do I want to try this week?".

I would think that no matter the size of shot it is still 1 1/8 oz of shot hitting steel at 3 dram eq. The only way I would think it could matter is if at long range the 6's hold together more and more of the shot hits the steel opposed to the #8 shot. But I don't know if that is what happens.

I did up a thread here some time ago and worked out pattern percentages and the like to varying distances. I was basing it on shot size and percentage of pattern expected with different chokes. It had to do with how much shot would be on steel at varying distances.. and it didn't seem to make much difference up to a certain point. I was actually a little bit surprised at the results. Since chokes can be different for different quality guns, it's mostly a theory about how it all worked out but I felt that the conclusions were sound based on the testing data that I'd done the research with. I think I was calculating how many pellets you needed to put on steel to make "minor". So the power factor was divided by the individual pellet ft/lb at distance = the total pellets needed on target to ensure a knock down. It didn't seem to matter on shot size so much as it did pattern density.

Also realize that unlike a single projectile (bullets), shot tends to arrive in a "cloud" so even though you have all those hits on target, sometimes if you have long stringing (at longer distances) all of your energy tends to not arrive at the same time. Likely it doesn't make a difference to the steel, but it's something else to think about.

Edited August 17, 2009 by sargenv

[TRUBL]

At most matches......poppers are calibrated with a 1oz 3 dram load of #8....out of an cylinder bore, at the distance it is suposed to be shot at.

That being said, poppers are (or would/should be) the only thing that are calibrated.....steel plates are not calibriated.

I use a 20gauge with a 7/8oz-2.75 dram #7.5 or #8 (1200fps?)........I will normally use an Improved cylinder bore, but if I hear of people having problems with their 12gauges, I will go to a modified choke and then have no problems at all. (20 gauge will typically have a longer shot column than a 12 gauge)

It's not so much load size as it is to choosing the proper choke.

At the class I teach....I show just how much of your pattern is really needed to knock down a popper or plate.......as a rule of thumb......you should be able to knock them over (or down) with half the pattern....kinda opens up your target, don't it.

Edited August 17, 2009 by TRUBL

[bigbrowndog]

Which ever one your gun patterns and runs better with, if it does both equally well with either load my vote would be heavier shot load because it gives more room for error in pattern placement. Technically speaking the lighter dram load should produce a better pattern especially with a heavier shot load. this is one of the reasons sporting clays,skeet and trap guys shoot lighter dram loads, they disrupt the shot load less when they are ignited, and produce more consistent patterns.

trapr

[Xfactor]

Technically speaking the lighter dram load should produce a better pattern especially with a heavier shot load. this is one of the reasons sporting clays,skeet and trap guys shoot lighter dram loads, they disrupt the shot load less when they are ignited, and produce more consistent patterns.

Hmmm... good to know!

[bigbrowndog]

Xfactor, remember they only need to break clays. and most of them operate their guns manually!!!!!!! I think as a rule most of us use something in the 3 dram or heavier area.

Trapr

[mpeltier]

My prefered load is 1 1/8 oz 2 3/4 dr. at 1150 fps in either 7 1/2 or 8 (no preferance to either, it is dependant on what my local supplyer has on hand). It opperates my Benelli reliably and knocks down steel when I do my part. The correct choke is very important. Localy I have had shooters show up with heavy field loads from #9 all the way up to #6 and fail to knock down the steel with a cylynder bore, and a solid aim.

[Xfactor]

Xfactor, remember they only need to break clays. and most of them operate their guns manually!!!!!!! I think as a rule most of us use something in the 3 dram or heavier area.

Trapr

Yeah, 3 dram seems to be the sweet spot.

...The correct choke is very important. Localy I have had shooters show up with heavy field loads from #9 all the way up to #6 and fail to knock down the steel with a cylynder bore, and a solid aim.

Speaking of chokes, I just ordered some from Briley, so I'm looking forward to playing around with them and testing out the patterns and POIs...

The thing is, I have a match coming up with a SG stage that has some steel, and some slug-targets. I'd be inclined to try my Light Modified, or even Modified choke, but both Benelli and Briley advised to use nothing tighter than Improved Cylinder with slugs... hope I am still effective on the steel with the IC!

[TRUBL]

Xfactor, remember they only need to break clays. and most of them operate their guns manually!!!!!!! I think as a rule most of us use something in the 3 dram or heavier area.

Trapr

Yeah, 3 dram seems to be the sweet spot.

...The correct choke is very important. Localy I have had shooters show up with heavy field loads from #9 all the way up to #6 and fail to knock down the steel with a cylynder bore, and a solid aim.

Speaking of chokes, I just ordered some from Briley, so I'm looking forward to playing around with them and testing out the patterns and POIs...

The thing is, I have a match coming up with a SG stage that has some steel, and some slug-targets. I'd be inclined to try my Light Modified, or even Modified choke, but both Benelli and Briley advised to use nothing tighter than Improved Cylinder with slugs... hope I am still effective on the steel with the IC!

A remington slug is .710" dia (.735 at the base, and there is not much base)....followed by a plastic base wad and a fiber base wad.

The bore on any given shotgun can be .720 to .740 dia. Keep in mind, the remgton slug is a hollow base....that could mean something, not that it expands going down the bore....more so that it can contract.

Cyl bore does not constrict.

Modified constricts by .020" (bore dia .700 to .720)

Full constricts by .035" (bore dia .685 - .705)

keep in mind.....the smaller bores normally are on the higher grade trap, skeet and sporting clays shotguns......not the rattlematics we use for our sport. Heck, ours may even be bigger!

Your shotgun has a forcing cone and the choke tapers to the finished dia as well.

The reason they talk about minimum choke is not because of danger.....but upsetting the slug to the point where it may "possibly" not fly as true.

In the old days.....your dad and grand dad ran a full choke all the time for slugs and never had a problem.....same is true today.

Main thing is......make sure you know how your slug flys with the choke you are using.

Tim

PS.....I got the info on constriction from here Choke constriction

[Xfactor]

Good info. So the only concern of too tight a choke with slugs is poor accuracy? I thought that there was a risk of the slug beating up the choke itself...

Also, in terms of the constrictions of various chokes, does it even matter what your actual shotgun barrel diameter is? Whether on the tight or open end of the .720 - .740 range, wouldn't the choke establish what the final taper is anyway?

Edited August 18, 2009 by Xfactor

[TRUBL]

Good info. So the only concern of too tight a choke with slugs is poor accuracy? I thought that there was a risk of the slug beating up the choke itself...

Correct... to a point......the slug will "extrude" itself down the barrel, it may or may not make a slug more or less accurate, thats where you need to do range time with your chokes. You need to know where it is shooting, and how good, then NEVER shoot a slug thru a different choke....on slug stages, you'll be using "that" choke. typically, I use a modified choke for slugs, that way, I know I will be good for bird shot steel in all cases.

Now, there is a point at which you will have danger.....but not in the normal scope of things.

Edited August 18, 2009 by TRUBL

[sargenv]

Something to add here..

I did some shooting today using various loads and various chokes.. I was happily surprised by what I found.

When I choked up with a standard full choke.. I was able to knock down a Colt speed steel and a USP at 40 yards with get this... 7/8 oz - #9 at 1200 fps. I about could not believe my eyes!

When I switched to modified the range decreased to 25 yards (with the same load).

I used three other loads. Intending to start at 10 and then go back 3 yards for every demarcation. So the lines were drawn at 10, 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28, 31, 34, 37, and 40 yards. In all cases I never got closer than 25 yards.

Gun used is a Browning Gold Hunter using the Invector Plus system.

#2 = 3 1/4 dram - 1 ounce of 7's (yeah actual 7's not 7.5's) (about 1290 fps)

#3 = 3 dram - 1 ounce - 9's (1250 fps)

#4 = 3 dram - 7/8 - 8's (1300 fps)

Load #2 with a Modified choke = 34 yards

Load #2 with an improved cylinder = 25 yards

Load #3 with a Modified = 34 yards

Load #3 with an Imp Cyl = 25 yards

Load #4 with Full choke = 37 yards

Load #4 with Improved = 25 yards

The steel was set to be knocked down by minor handgun loads. When I used #4 and #0 buck at the max distance, they both put the steel down with authority when I used full choke. The 0 buck not so much when I used them with an improved cylinder likely due to pellet sparsity (12 pellets at about a 2 ft spread @ 40 yards). The #4 buck (20 pellets) appeared to work no matter what since it had better pattern density at range. I may try reloading some buck with a pellet buffering agent to see if that improves my patterns at all. It is supposed to but I want to test it head to head so to speak. The 0 buck spread may be attributed to the higher velocity causing it to "blow" the pattern. Maybe loading these to target velocity (1200 fps) may keep the spacing between pellets tighter at longer distances. Only one way to find out.

I was really surprised to see that #9's at max distance and a full choke would put down steel.. The spread appeared to be quite wide, but likely the center of the pattern was dense enough to get lead on target.. Now I wish I had painted between shots to see what density really was.. Maybe tomorrow..

I also tested out some of my handloaded slugs. They were cast with pure lead to .685" and weighed in the range of about 440 gr. I used a plastic shotcup to center it in the bore, and some old school plastic overpowder wads with hard cardboard filler wad to bring up the wad height. I used a roll crimp to close these off and they measured about what the factory would load them to. Inadvertantly I fired them through the full choke and was able to make hits in the A and C zones of a turtle target using just the bead sight on the barrel at 40 yards. Velocity on these is about 1300 fps, so they were loaded about where Tactical low recoil slugs would be. Not the best, but at 20 cents each, I can hardly complain

Edited August 19, 2009 by sargenv

[mpeltier]

I have ben trying to tell ya, choke, choke ,choke... I have also found better grouping with Buck to be found with less choke. Seems that the bigger balls are disrupted more in flight and spread out when squeezed together as they exit. Maybee they bump into each other and kinda bounce out of the pattern.

Sometimes at our club we put real heavy silouetes of turkeys up at real long distance (30-40yds). Its funny to watch the cylynder bore shooters bang away and hardly knock over any of them. My light loads with full choke puts em down every time.

I have found the two most usefull chokes (for me) to be Skeet (Most used) and Light Modified (for slightly longer/stubborn shots).

[Charles Bond]

I know next to nothing about shooting a shotgun --- but here's what seems to work for me:

I shoot 8s most of the time, and keep a few boxes of 6s on hand for any stages involving steel at ~20 yards or more. At distance the 6's make a difference.....

Nik you know quite a lot. Size 6 shot does make a difference on longer range steel.

I would add to that a light modified choke and no that did not come with the gun but all of the better after market choke folks have them.

[ppro]

Trubl

Thinking you got this backwards....bore diameters tend to be on the larger side, with trap, skeet and sporting clays guns.....mainly, they are what they today call backbored....oversize bores, compared to std bores. A wee bit softer shooting, and may pattern a wee bit better with larger shot sizes.....but

I would prefer closer to nominal bore standard size, when shooting slugs.......

I have patterned copious quantities of choke and combinations of slugs and shot shells and 00 buck.......and I find quite a lot of difference:

1. between different guns

2. and combinations of shotshell and choke, with each specific gun

3. almost always, the higher quality shot (higher antimony), shotshells, will produce better patterns (read tighter more uniform) than will the lower antimony shot loaded shotshells.

Remington, for example....in their STS line of loads for trap, skeet, sporting clays etc, use higher antimony shot (harder and deforms less) than most anyone else....but you still want to check out patterns with possible choke choices.

Most wally world shotshells on the low dollar end, like the federal for example, have lower antimony shot....harder to get the tighter patterns than with the harder shot.

For my own personal serious use choice, I also prefer nickel plated 00 buck ...for patterns possible, and penetration.....chokes not withstanding. Or federal flitecontrol for long range.

Paul

[larry weeks]

Haven't done much patterning but 2-3/4 dram, #8, hard shot (1145 fps), through an improved cylinder choke took down everything I hit at DPMS, but I did have to aim hard. Just last night I scored 22 in trap with the same, 21" M2 and the same load (IM choke). Do have to check the groups with slugs and IC, original shooting was done with a Mod and I missed 3 of 6 (couldn't be me rushing the shot, must be the choke).