38 special in a 1911

[MustangGreg66]

Cool, I didn't now this existed either. When I first read this I immediatly thought of the S&W52, but it's it's own animal. I had the privilage to shoot one that a friend was selling at my local range a while back, very nice gun.

[BMartens]

1911's adapted to .38 special wadcutter target loads were popular with bullseye shooters as a light recoiling and super accurate option for the centerfire portion of the match.

Jim Clark produced this long heavy slide version back in the 70's. The magazines I have were specific for the .38 special round. Getting them to run with a long slide and the .38 special wadcutter round was usually a pretty good trick, while being able to shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. Clark also made a companion to this gun as a long heavy slide .45. Both were for centerfire competition.

[Dan Sierpina]

As Rob mentioned about barrels. Call Gil Hebard Guns or Kart barrels. Neither have web sites though. If you call Kart, ask for Conrad.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Dan Sierpina

[DMiculek]

Lets throw a Giles .38 in the mix:

[Steve J]

You can still find 38 special mid-range wadcutter Colts for Bullseye shooting on GunBroker.com from time to time. Obviously, they are old Bullseye guns and some are still in very nice condition.

[Dan Sierpina]

Lets throw a Giles .38 in the mix:

Donnie,

That is an old gun! Is the rib a real early Bo Mar?

[45junkie]

I have a 38spl mid-range. It's a lot of fun to shoot and a great conversation piece at the range.

[BMartens]

There seems to be quite a few guys on here who have or had and loved a .38spl 1911.... my question is why? What does a .38spl 1911 do that a 9mm, .40 or .45 (or 38super, 10mm, etc.) can't do? I guess I don't get it. Novelty factor? Ammo cost?

If you put it in historical perspective it makes sense. Most of the guns mentioned were probably made in the 50s and 60s and into the 70s. There was no .40 or 10mm at the time, 38 Super had a poor accuracy reputation because they headspaced on the semi-rim and 9mm was still pretty uncommon in this country. So, if you wanted to shoot an auto in bullseye you shot 1911 .45, got a Model 52 and shot .38Spl or had a 1911 modified to shoot .38Spl. That was pretty much it as far as choices went. R,

Actually, it was to have guns with the same feel. High Standard .22's were very popular. The Military grip version had the grip angle the same as a 1911. A centerfire pistol, that was smaller than .45 could have a lighter trigger than a .45, and would have less recoil. Then a .45 would finish the guns needed for a 2700 match.

A model 52 grip angle is much different than a 1911, why not have one that matches it? This is also the reason for Kart and Day .22 conversions.

Dan,

I'm not discounting that it was to have guns that felt the same, but my point was that there weren't any alternatives at the time. You shot a revolver, a 1911 or a M52 for centerfire...that was about it. So sure, if you wanted your rimfire and centerfire to feel the same and you wanted to shoot something milder a .38Spl modification to a 1911 made sense. Nobody would bother doing that now with all the available options out there. R,

I checked with my brother, he is the source of the Clark guns and the retired bullseye shooter, and he added one other dimension to the reason for .38 SPL, there is no easier bullet to score than a full wadcutter. There is no doubt if you touch or cut a scoring ring with a full wadcutter. The picture of the Giles gun and target show the perfectly cut holes.

Bullseye is also a one hand game so light recoil and quick sight recovery is very important. The long slide and the heavy full length BoMar rib added weight and more control as well as sight radius.

Barrels are mentioned in a couple of posts and the .38 long slide is interesting in that Jim Clark manufactured the barrel by sleeving a .45 NM chamber and attaching that to a 38 caliber barrel. There were no 6” barrels or slides available in those days so they handmade them. The slide is handmade with the extra inch cut from another slide and welded on. The ramp is modified and a small filler piece is welded to the frame to help the flat nose rounds feed. A heavy rounded crimp also helps the rounds feed better.

The one thing that was available in that period was a seemingly endless supply of cheap surplus GI issue parts. Taking a hacksaw to a slide today would make many people a little nervous.

[GmanCdp]

Lets throw a Giles .38 in the mix:

Donnie,

That is an old gun! Is the rib a real early Bo Mar?

those old test targets are neat,some of them would also include the load with them...i wonder how big the paper would have to be on

on some of the current autos made today...

[Craig-2008]

I have a S&W 52-2 and love it. I have had 2 1911 38 spl. in the past and just enjoyed shooting them. Just looking at a new gun project to work on.

[chirpy]

I remember seeing .38 spl. brass marked .38 Special AMU (I believe) and was told it was made spesifically for the Army Marksmanship Unit Bullseye Team and their .38 spl. semis.

It's been a while and haven't seen any since...maybe a cartridge collector might know for sure.

FWIW

Richard

PS: I believe Giles made his own rear sight and rib with sights. Mine had the adjustable rear sight similar to BoMar.

Edited August 15, 2009 by chirpy

[Ignatz]

Lets throw a Giles .38 in the mix:

Donnie,

That is an old gun! Is the rib a real early Bo Mar?

Thats a Giles designed and manufactured rib. A buddy of mine stopped in to order matching 38 spl and 45 pistols from John Giles at his shop in Odessa Fla. When he asked John to substitute his rib with a Bo-Mar rib, John refused to build anything for my friend. Not a yelling match or anything like that, but the man was passionate about his design. I'm lucky to have a Giles 45 with all the test targets. Amazing because these were all stock colt barrels . My 45's test target (50 yds) is 1 17/32" with a signed note that four out of the five shots measured 15/16". I keep a page from the NRA riffleman December 1992 "In My Experence" where John disscuses 45 taper crimping, H&G 68 bullets and bullseye powder. Great article.

[Canuck223]

Barrels are mentioned in a couple of posts and the .38 long slide is interesting in that Jim Clark manufactured the barrel by sleeving a .45 NM chamber and attaching that to a 38 caliber barrel. There were no 6" barrels or slides available in those days so they handmade them. The slide is handmade with the extra inch cut from another slide and welded on. The ramp is modified and a small filler piece is welded to the frame to help the flat nose rounds feed. A heavy rounded crimp also helps the rounds feed better.

I was under the impression that Clark had milled out the chamber of .38 Super barrels, and installed his sleeve.

[Guy Neill]

The 38 AMU cartridge was basically a 38 Special, but with a smaller rim - more of a semi-rim. It was to improve feed reliability. Still a flush seated wadcutter bullet.

It could sort of be thought of as a 38 Special length 38 Super case.

Guy

I remember seeing .38 spl. brass marked .38 Special AMU (I believe) and was told it was made spesifically for the Army Marksmanship Unit Bullseye Team and their .38 spl. semis.

It's been a while and haven't seen any since...maybe a cartridge collector might know for sure.

FWIW

Richard

PS: I believe Giles made his own rear sight and rib with sights. Mine had the adjustable rear sight similar to BoMar.

[G-ManBart]

The 38 AMU cartridge was basically a 38 Special, but with a smaller rim - more of a semi-rim. It was to improve feed reliability. Still a flush seated wadcutter bullet.

It could sort of be thought of as a 38 Special length 38 Super case.

Guy

Did they headspace it on the semi-rim or the case mouth? R,

[BMartens]

Barrels are mentioned in a couple of posts and the .38 long slide is interesting in that Jim Clark manufactured the barrel by sleeving a .45 NM chamber and attaching that to a 38 caliber barrel. There were no 6" barrels or slides available in those days so they handmade them. The slide is handmade with the extra inch cut from another slide and welded on. The ramp is modified and a small filler piece is welded to the frame to help the flat nose rounds feed. A heavy rounded crimp also helps the rounds feed better.

I was under the impression that Clark had milled out the chamber of .38 Super barrels, and installed his sleeve.

That would seem to make sense but, in this case it is clearly marked and you can see the seam between the chamber and barrel. The only explanation that I can come up with is he knew what he was doing and it worked.

[Dan Sierpina]

Jim Clark Sr. not only did know what he was doing, he was a great Bullseye shooter too. I'm kind of surprised that this thread has had all the interest it's gotten.

G-Man.... I may have a barrel out in the shop that's chambered for the AMU variant. I'll take a look. I do know that I have 2 barrels for the .38 (not Super) out there. Neither have been fitted. One is a Colt, the other I'm pretty sure is a Smith and Wesson.

[DMiculek]

Lets throw a Giles .38 in the mix:

Donnie,

That is an old gun! Is the rib a real early Bo Mar?

That is a Giles rib, these were made by Mr Giles (IIRC). I had it's twin in .45 and test targets as well. I traded them to my brother for something else I couldn't live without.

One thing about .38 spec. auto's, it will let you know how you handle follow through.

Can't see it in the lousy pic, but Mr Giles reamed the slide stop hole, fitted it with a hardened insert and used an oversize slide stop pin. Both were very, very well fitted pistols.

[DMiculek]

Barrels are mentioned in a couple of posts and the .38 long slide is interesting in that Jim Clark manufactured the barrel by sleeving a .45 NM chamber and attaching that to a 38 caliber barrel. There were no 6" barrels or slides available in those days so they handmade them. The slide is handmade with the extra inch cut from another slide and welded on. The ramp is modified and a small filler piece is welded to the frame to help the flat nose rounds feed. A heavy rounded crimp also helps the rounds feed better.

I was under the impression that Clark had milled out the chamber of .38 Super barrels, and installed his sleeve.

That would seem to make sense but, in this case it is clearly marked and you can see the seam between the chamber and barrel. The only explanation that I can come up with is he knew what he was doing and it worked.

That middle pic looks like the bottom of the bbl is milled for a "mini ramp". Is there a small ramp tigged onto the frame?

[Dan Sierpina]

You shot autos??? I remember the boys from La. at Second Chance, and they only shot wheel guns!

[Canuck223]

Barrels are mentioned in a couple of posts and the .38 long slide is interesting in that Jim Clark manufactured the barrel by sleeving a .45 NM chamber and attaching that to a 38 caliber barrel. There were no 6" barrels or slides available in those days so they handmade them. The slide is handmade with the extra inch cut from another slide and welded on. The ramp is modified and a small filler piece is welded to the frame to help the flat nose rounds feed. A heavy rounded crimp also helps the rounds feed better.

I was under the impression that Clark had milled out the chamber of .38 Super barrels, and installed his sleeve.

That would seem to make sense but, in this case it is clearly marked and you can see the seam between the chamber and barrel. The only explanation that I can come up with is he knew what he was doing and it worked.

Thanks for the picture! I wonder if instead of a simple chamber sleeve, if it was a rifled section with a chamber section.

Most barrels for the 1911 made prior to the 80's were two part barrels, with the rifled section braze welded to the chamber section.

[DMiculek]

You shot autos??? I remember the boys from La. at Second Chance, and they only shot wheel guns!

I am Jerry's brother, seldom have a revolver in my hands :-) I was one of the only ones from La. with an auto.

Edited August 15, 2009 by DMiculek

[Bill Nesbitt]

Did any of these guns have a fluted chamber? I bought some fired 38 Special brass several years ago and some of them looked like they had been fired in a chamber with 3 flutes in it. I think it all had a wcc head stamp.

[JWBooth]

Bill,

No, none that I saw, or owned( I owned four of them at one time) had fluted chambers. In the 45 6'' barrels , jim would take a barrel blank, cut it off , then chamber one end off it. He would turn the chambered end to fit into the section of another barrel made into a sleeve. The sleeve was the chamber section of a match barrel cut off at the front locking lugg. When these two were fitted together, he would braze them, and smooth them up. One 38 was done the same way. He probably developed varies ways to do it as time went on.

Oh by the way the 38AMU brass that I have (Rem/Umc) has a head diameter 0f .402.

JWB

[R112mercer]

One thing about .38 spec. auto's, it will let you know how you handle follow through.

Very true. If I don't follow through all the way with my 52-2 you can see the bullets slightly keyhole.

Bill, some of the Colt factory .38 Specials had a fluted chamber, but the way it was described to me was more like a threaded chamber to delay unlocking in a straight blow-back gun. Is this it, maybe?