Rocket Posted November 2, 2003 Share Posted November 2, 2003 I was shooting groups today from 25 yds and couldn't get any to print inside 10 inches. I was calling good shots but the results were everywhere so I tried some from a rest with no better results. This is the barrel that came with the gun and it has been a good performer in the past. I've shot groups inside 2 inches from 40 yds. with it , but I guess the 40k plus rounds have taken their toll. I never really cleaned this barrel , except for the chamber , going along with the concencious on this board. Maybe I'll clean it and try again before looking for a replacement. Anyone have any opinions on a good new barrel for my gun ? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 At 40K rounds I guess it could be shot out depending on your load and bullets, although I would think you should get more out of it. Who says never to clean your barrel? Haven't heard that one before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 I guess I am Old School, but getting the grit off the rest of your gun and not cleaning the barrel is just not the way it was ment to be done. Never let one go 40k rounds w/o cleaning it, so I don't know about accuracy. Is this jacketed ammo? If so, may be time for a new tube. If it is lead, you still have a ways to go. I have over 90K rounds thru my Commander and it still does 2.5 inches at 25. 99% of that was lead, so you be the judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 I think that most of the "Don't clean the barrel" references originate with Wil Schuemann. His comments were directed towards folks that shoot strictly jacketed bullets. His comments are that you can do far more damage using strong solvents, abrasives, brushes and screens through your barrel than simply leaving it alone. I have been following his advice for years now and cannot find fault with it so far. If you shoot lead, you WILL periodically need to clean your barrel to maintain accuracy. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Schuemann Ultimatch or Nowlin. I have a Schuemann with 60,000+ rounds and I still stay inside 2" at 25yds. I do clean it about every 1500 to 2000 rnds and shoot Black bullets which are a molly coated lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 L9x25 If that were really true, all the benchrest guys would throw away all their cleaning stuff, but last time I looked, they are still toting mega cleaning stuff to the range; and actually spend more time cleaning their rifle than shooting it. All due respect, I'd bet the chips on the BR guys and keep cleaning my barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 I shoot only jacketed ( MG 180's JHP's). It's not like it has never been cleaned , just very rarely, and not at all the last 3 months. I'm somewhat dissapointed with the round count , but I often have to slam thru 200- 300 rounds pretty fast and that can be hard on a barrel from what I hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Tightloop, I cannot tell you why Wil makes those claims but they are right on his website too. http://www.schuemann.com/clean0.htm It is very possible that they are intended for "average Joe shooter" that is likely to do more damage that good by attempting to clean his barrel. I agree with your comments about the Benchrest guys but they are basically operating in a different world than we are. They know how to clean their barrels and do it VERY often. They have a bunch of chemicals and equipment to do it correctly too. They spend far more time preparing to shoot than shooting. I just don't think that benchrest level of accuracy is necessary on an IPSC pistol. My oldest pistol still shoots far better than I do. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 The big difference between a pistol barrel and a BR barrel is the velocity involved. A pistol barrel isn't going to get the level of jacketing material built up in it that a rifle will. Run a patch with Copper solvent through a handgun and one through a rifle and compare them. I clean my pistol barrel with a couple patches every few thousand rounds just to wipe it out. No loss of accuracy. The BR guys are just a little too anal for me. They spend more time weight powder than I'll spend loading in a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 In my mind leaving a large amount of fouling, lead, and/or jacket material in a barrel for long periods of time without cleaning can lead to pitting of the steel. I don't justify cleaning my pistol barrels regularly to gain accuracy but to clean out the fouling and to get a light coating of oil on the surface of the steel to prevent rust and pitting. I shoot benchrest and use the same solvents and oils to care for my pistol barrels as my BR rifles. Oh Well.....To each his own. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 Well , I went out and cleaned it spic and span with all the nasty stuff you are not supposed to use like sweet's , shooters choice and even some kroil for kicks. There was a fair amount of jacketing material built up in there as well as some crude around the beveled crown. I can still see groves and lands so it's not completely smoothed out yet. I read some where that you can sometimes bring a barrel back to life with a new slightly oversized slide stop ? I may try to get one. I've got a new gun coming from Kodiak soon so it would be nice to nurse this thing along a couple more matches worth, but I suspect this barrel isn't long for this world. I had been noticing increasing velocities with my current load which I thought was strange. 930 fps suddenly goes to 950 fps with no change in powder weight. I didn't know what to think of it at the time, but now in retrospect I think it is likely the barrel on it's last gasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carter Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 If you've developed some up and down slop when the barrels locked up an oversize slide stop might help, sometimes the slide stop's wear a little too. It's doubtful that you would loose that much accuracy though. Is the muzzle ok? No nicks or burrs? Have you tried a different lot of bullets? I got a lot of bullets one time that just about made me crazy from the crappy accuracy they gave, looked perfect, and I still don't know why they wouldn't shoot. If you have some erosion in the throat you might be able to get some accuracy back by loading a little longer. The accuracy your getting though suggests something seriously wrong, I would look the barrel over very closely for cracks. I've had several guns sent to me that the owners said their acuuracy went out the window just before the locking lugs broke loose. Also check the end shake or how much the barrel will move back and forth when locked up, doesn't take much of that to ruin the accuracy either. I've shot a lot more 40's than that through a barrel and still shoot at least 3-4 inches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 You should check the crown of the barrel for lead build-up, or even copper build-up. It can accumulate their even when shooting nothing but jacketed bullets. I recently found an uneven build-up on the crown of my glock barrel. It's the last thing that has an effect on the spin of you bullet. Crown on mine is cut at almost a 45deg angle & it's about 1/8th of an inch across. Very easy to clean with some Hoppes and the square side of a screwdriver. If I had something made of brass I would have used that as a scraper. No sign of scratches though. The part about getting a new 1911 slide stop is true enough. They say that most all the wear on that part happens in the first few hundred rounds. With 40K rounds, I'm guessing you have a groove worn into yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Rocket: Barrels tend to get slower as they get shot out so it is odd to see yours getting faster. Now that you cleaned it, did the groups tighten up? My guess is that even a shot-out barrel should do better than 10" at 40 yards. Is something on the gun broken? 10" at 40 yards sounds like a cracked slide, cracked bushing or cracked barrel lug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 one more thought. Is this a new batch of bullets? Try an old batch of bullets if you can. Try to Mic the current batch against a set of old heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 It is unlikely that 40,000 would wear the rifling out of a barrel. This of course assumes that the barrel was within spec to begin with. It is always possible that you got a barrel that wasn't properly hot treated or had an oversized bore to begin with. It is not very likely though because the problem would have probably surfaced sooner. The are a lot of area's that can cause the accuracy problem other then the bore. The fit of the barrel to the slide/frame for example. It is possible that they have worn to the point that the lock up is loose. You can also have a bushing or slide stop pin that is worn out of spec or broken. Just before the lugs break the accuracy tend's to go so you might look there as well. The slide can also crack causing the same problem. If it is an Open gun the problem might be with a broken scope or scope mount. Check your ammo as well, every once in a while bullets come out slightly undersized and this can cause huge problems with accuracy. Normally if your barrel is worn out you will first find the problem in the forcing cone or lead area. This is the area between the end of the chamber and the beginning of the rifling in the barrel. Fast or abraisive powders can cause erosion in that area and it will effect accuracy. This is much more common in small bore, high velocity rifles then in pistols. It is sometimes seen in 9mm bore sized major guns, rarely in something like a 40S&W. A well made barrel in a 40 should last for at least 100,000 rounds. The fit on the other hand can go bad much sooner. It depends on how it was fit to start with. Pistol barrels should be cleaned regularly, just like a rifle. Care should be given to protect the lead area and the crown of the barrel. Nicks and ding's in these areas will cause a lot of accuracy problems. This is a lot more important when shooting lead bullets of any kind then jacketed but it is still important. The build up will effect the depth and dull the edge of the rifling reducing its ability to grap the bullet and put the proper spin on it. Carefully check your gun for crack's, and clean the entire gun including the bore. Mike your bullets to make sure they are the proper diameter, then recheck your accuracy. If there is still a problem have a quality pistolsmith check it out for hairline cracks, worn fit, etc. He can slug the barrel to check the bore diameter as a final check of the bore. Good Luck, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted November 4, 2003 Author Share Posted November 4, 2003 I went ahead and ordered a new slide stop and cleaned the hell out of the whole gun. I've had a close look at the slide , barrel and lugs and can find no cracks. When I assemble the gun and put a pencil in the barrel , I can feel a small bit of play from the slide / frame fit loosening up in the vertical plane. This doesn't seem excessive but the groups have had more vertical spread than horizontal so it may be a factor. The lock up feels good and I cannot really depress the chamber hood with my finger. There was a fair amount of jacketing crude built up in the crown which I removed with some JB bore compond. I'm hoping this was the big issue. I mic ' ed the bullets and they are all at .400 or .399 , this may be within the error of the micrometer. I'll get to try it out on Wendsday so I'll give an update then. One thing I noticed was so much jacketing material had built up toward the end of the bore that the lands and grooves had blended without a sharp demarcation , kind of like a smooth swell rather than a sharp box when looked at in cross section. I measured the 14 shot group and it was actually about 6 inches but I am a pretty decent group shooter and this was even from a rest at only 25 yds. ! The load was chronoed the same afternoon I had the problem and 5 test shots were all 950-960 fps. My best group with this gun was just under 2 inches with 5 shots off-hand from 40 yds. a few months ago. Thanks for the help. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I saw in your last post you mentioned "vertical spread" and it brought this to mind. Here From the 1911 Forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Forgot to say that you might try a heavy hammer spring, 18-21lbs, keeps the gun locked up longer. Same effect for a firing pin stop that has more of a square corner on the bottom. A 'loose' gun feels a lot more tight when the hammer is down, heavy mainspring behind it. Same condition as when the gun fires. That article from 1911 Forum is good. Read somewhere that inconsistent ignition can throw accuracy out the window. In other words, if some primers get hit hard, and others get hit lightly, they will flash your powder inconsistently. The article ran through all the ways you can check to see that your firing pin & firing pin tunnel are clean & working correctly. I'd mostly just make sure it's clean in there and then check your primers, at least ten shots in a row, make sure they all look the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 I have read several posts from the comp shooters here that they did not clean their barrels during "shooting season" to maintain consistent accuracy, but did clean their guns. I have also read numerous times that if you shoot jacketed bullets, the abrasion of cleaning the barrel does far more wear than the shooting does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted November 5, 2003 Author Share Posted November 5, 2003 Merlin , that was a interesting link. I checked my lower lug / barrel link travel and sure enough the sucker is cut to about -.020 , not the needed -.050 necessary to keep the barrel in battery long enough to let the bullet escape. The thing is that it used to shoot good groups even with this set-up. I did recently change to a 10.5 lb. recoil spring and maybe this is simply not enough pressure to delay barrel unlocking. I'm going to switch back to a heavier recoil spring and give it a go. I may also drop down to a slightly lighter load , maybe 935 fps and see if that helps. Now if I just had a smith who lived next door who could re-fit the lower lugs, like tomarrow morning, I'd be set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 May the FORCE be with you..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rishii Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 I had a gun once that the accuracy went to hell quickly during a match. drove me nuts, checked everything I could think of and nothing helped, then I notice my sights (as in both the front and the rear) were loose . you might check that also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Forgot to say that you might try a heavy hammer spring, 18-21lbs, keeps the gun locked up longer. Same effect for a firing pin stop that has more of a square corner on the bottom. A 'loose' gun feels a lot more tight when the hammer is down, heavy mainspring behind it. Same condition as when the gun fires. Cas, I'm curious if an XL firing pin with a 19 or 20# hammer spring will increase the posibility of pieced primers? I'm currently using Winchesters. Or should I just put the regular length FP back in with the heavier MS? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted November 10, 2003 Author Share Posted November 10, 2003 Just some follow up. I went ahead and changed the slide stop , went to a slightly heavier recoil spring 12lb. vs. 10.5 , and cleaned the heavily fouled barrel. Results: groups improved to the 4 inch range freestyle off-hand from 25 yds. Still not where it was or where I'd like to be , but I can live with it. I'm still finding more vertical spread to my groups so I think the lower lug/ barrel link issue may be a factor. I don't feel like giving up my blaster for a week or more to have it re-fitted though. I've changed too many variables to figure out what the biggest problem was, not to mention technique which is obviously a huge part of the equation when trying to objectively measure a guns potential accuracy. I mean just something like lack of consistent grip pressure and timing can throw the whole thing off big time. It's hard to see everything that happens in the milliseconds between when the hammer drops and the bullet leaves the gun. When you see the sights lift off the target dead center, but the hit isn't there, it kinda leaves you scratching your head - me or the gun. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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