spd522 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I just swapped in a lighter hammer spring in mine. Made a big difference. DA dropped 3-4 lbs. SA maybe 1/2 (not much). I will probably send it to Bruce Gray for a short reset and action job. But I could easily leave it as it is and compete fine. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I just swapped in a lighter hammer spring in mine. Made a big difference. DA dropped 3-4 lbs. SA maybe 1/2 (not much). I will probably send it to Bruce Gray for a short reset and action job.But I could easily leave it as it is and compete fine. Craig Even if you put the factory hammer spring back in, the single action weight will be less than the NRA required 3.5lbs for production. Mine was 2.9 lbs. SA out of the box, unfired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I just swapped in a lighter hammer spring in mine. Made a big difference. DA dropped 3-4 lbs. SA maybe 1/2 (not much). I will probably send it to Bruce Gray for a short reset and action job.But I could easily leave it as it is and compete fine. Craig Even if you put the factory hammer spring back in, the single action weight will be less than the NRA required 3.5lbs for production. Mine was 2.9 lbs. SA out of the box, unfired. Mine is at 3.5 after the lighter spring was installed. It was about 4 lbs. out of the box. They are all different. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Perkins Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 My x-five was lighter than 2-1/2 on the single action when I got it and I had to make it a little heaver, but what I wonder is if anyone has ever made one doubble action only with the stock parts that's it it? If you could make one doubble action only and get the doubble action around 3-1/2 that would be idea, because the x-five Allround has a smooth doubble action, it's just heavy and the switch between the the single & doubble, other than that they shoot as good as any iron sight custom 1911 I have ever had! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 A lot of people are talking about doing work on their "Production guns" in this thread. LEGAL ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) Yes..........within limits. Here's the rule as per NRA. Notice they specify "visible internal or external modifications": 3.2.1 Production Firearm - The intent of this rule is to encourage the use of production firearms as manufactured and promote NRA Action Pistol Shooting at the “Grass Roots” level. Accordingly, in order to keep this class from becoming an “Equipment Match” , Single Action only pistols are prohibited. A Production Firearm is a semi-automatic handgun or revolver which is or has been a catalog item readily available to the general public equipped with factory notch & post sights. All standard safety features of firearms must operate properly. The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows: (1) Grips may be replaced or modified to fit the competitor’s hand or to facilitate loading. Checkering, stippling, grip tape and grip sleeves are permitted. (2) Barrel length may not exceed 5.35 inches for semi-automatic pistols and may not exceed 6 inches for revolvers. (3) Wide “target” style hammers and triggers, if included on the firearm as originally manufactured, are permitted. (4) Only open sights may be used. The front sight must be a non-adjustable post sight. The rear sight may be adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight. Sights may be replaced but they must use the original dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm. Fiber optic sights are permitted. (5) Barrels may be replaced with original factory barrels with the same configuration of the original barrel. (6) All production firearms must fire the first shot of every stage double action. (7) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode. (8) External finishes, either protective of decorative, or other non-functional embellishments. (i.e. Such as engraving, inlays or inscriptions) are permitted. (9) Holsters must be designed for carry and suitable for everyday use. The following firearm modifications are prohibited: (1) Single action only firearms (2) Custom -shop firearms. (3) Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm are prohibited. Front adjustable sights are prohibited. (4) Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights. (5) Thumb rests, orthopedic grips, grip or magazine extensions. No part of the grip may encircle the hand. (6) Compensators, ported or weighted barrels. (7) Race type holsters. Edited December 20, 2009 by Alan550 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Perkins Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Yes..........within limits. Here's the rule as per NRA. Notice they specify "visible internal or external modifications":3.2.1 Production Firearm - The intent of this rule is to encourage the use of production firearms as manufactured and promote NRA Action Pistol Shooting at the “Grass Roots” level. Accordingly, in order to keep this class from becoming an “Equipment Match” , Single Action only pistols are prohibited. A Production Firearm is a semi-automatic handgun or revolver which is or has been a catalog item readily available to the general public equipped with factory notch & post sights. All standard safety features of firearms must operate properly. The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows: (1) Grips may be replaced or modified to fit the competitor’s hand or to facilitate loading. Checkering, stippling, grip tape and grip sleeves are permitted. (2) Barrel length may not exceed 5.35 inches for semi-automatic pistols and may not exceed 6 inches for revolvers. (3) Wide “target” style hammers and triggers, if included on the firearm as originally manufactured, are permitted. (4) Only open sights may be used. The front sight must be a non-adjustable post sight. The rear sight may be adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight. Sights may be replaced but they must use the original dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm. Fiber optic sights are permitted. (5) Barrels may be replaced with original factory barrels with the same configuration of the original barrel. (6) All production firearms must fire the first shot of every stage double action. (7) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode. (8) External finishes, either protective of decorative, or other non-functional embellishments. (i.e. Such as engraving, inlays or inscriptions) are permitted. (9) Holsters must be designed for carry and suitable for everyday use. The following firearm modifications are prohibited: (1) Single action only firearms (2) Custom -shop firearms. (3) Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm are prohibited. Front adjustable sights are prohibited. (4) Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights. (5) Thumb rests, orthopedic grips, grip or magazine extensions. No part of the grip may encircle the hand. (6) Compensators, ported or weighted barrels. (7) Race type holsters. I shot in the Cameron cup with a 686 with basicaly a stock 686 with the single action over 3-1/2 and the doubble action was heavy!!! There was someone there who shot in production class with a 686 that had been modified to shoot DA only( a visable internal mod) and he had a bobed hammer (a visable external mod) and I believe one of the ref's from the Bianchi cup was there, said it was ok. He won a production gun entry to next years cup with that gun. Now I think he has a great idea on getting a edge over most people and I don't care that he won a entry fee because I want to shoot open, I just don't have my gun finished yet. The thing of it is I think there will be a few people showing up to shoot with a stock gun, and I think there will be people mad because they didn't know they could do this to there gun. It is a expensive match, if they are wanting people to come there with there out of the box gun and be able to compete at a entry level most likely they won't do as good as the guy with the modified gun? If people are just getting started in the sport, now alot of them will have to take there gun to a gunsmith and pay them to modify the gun so they can have more of a Bianchi Production gun? I think people are missing the point of production. Maybe being that production class is heading to modified guns and they are allowing it, maybe they can start a Out Of Box class for the real begeners so we can get more people into the sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Clear as mud, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Perkins Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Clear as mud, then. Yep, clear as mud!!! They deffently need to spell it out a little better, I would hate to see the Production class more messed up than it is, and people start not wanting to do it because of the having to get there gear modified??? I kind of wonder where it will be going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The head referee for the Cup approved getting rid of the single action notch. It is an internal mod as it is inside the frame. Mine is a new 686+ so it has the hammer block and the hammer lock. What I wanted clarification on was that the only way removing the single action notch was visible was by the hammer not locking back. There were a lot of complaints that a stock revolver wouldn't pick up a 3.5lb weight on SA. My gun would almost pick up a 4.5lb weight right out of the box. When I had it worked the SA would just barely pick up the 3.5lb. Then I got the ruling on the SA notch. This allowed those that had a stock gun that wouldn't pass to use their guns. Bobbing the hammer is a visible external mod and not allowed. They would have been shooting my match in the Metallic class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The head referee for the Cup approved getting rid of the single action notch. It is an internal mod as it is inside the frame. Seems not to jive with the wording of the rules though ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The only way that it didn't jive with the rules was that the hammer would not lock back. It is an internal mod which is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 It is an internal mod which is legal. We must be reading different rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows:(7) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode. We are looking at the same rules. The key is the interpretation (sp?). Removing the SA notch is an internal mod. #7 says "in any Mode". What if it only has one mode as in DA? My gun now only has one mode so the trigger weight can be checked only in DA. The mod was internal and in my gun, invisible. The only "visible" part is the hammer will not lock back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows:(7) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode. We are looking at the same rules. The key is the interpretation (sp?). Removing the SA notch is an internal mod. ... Your interpretation seems to involve just leaving off the part that clearly says "internal"...no? #7 says "in any Mode". What if it only has one mode as in DA? To get there (DAO), it has either been modified, or it hasn't, right? If it has been modified, then how can it meet the requirement of "no internal or external mods" ? The mod was internal and in my gun, invisible. The only "visible" part is the hammer will not lock back. So, if a knowledgeable person were to take the part you modified, and put it in his/her right hand...and take a stock part and out it in his/her left hand... they would not be able to see the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Devil's Advocate Mode on: Isn't there a difference between "No internal mods" and "no visible internal mods?" If you can't see it, how do you know it was a modification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Devil's Advocate Mode on:Isn't there a difference between "No internal mods" and "no visible internal mods?" If you can't see it, how do you know it was a modification? Right. That is some of that mud that needs cleared up. If stuff you can't see when the gun is together is to be allowed...then I have a whole bunch of modifications that can help out Motorcycle Dan and his Glock. Heck, I have about a half-dozen that could be done that wouldn't be apparent to any but the most trained eye...even if they took the gun apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Perkins Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows:(7) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode. We are looking at the same rules. The key is the interpretation (sp?). Removing the SA notch is an internal mod. ... Your interpretation seems to involve just leaving off the part that clearly says "internal"...no? #7 says "in any Mode". What if it only has one mode as in DA? To get there (DAO), it has either been modified, or it hasn't, right? If it has been modified, then how can it meet the requirement of "no internal or external mods" ? The mod was internal and in my gun, invisible. The only "visible" part is the hammer will not lock back. So, if a knowledgeable person were to take the part you modified, and put it in his/her right hand...and take a stock part and out it in his/her left hand... they would not be able to see the difference? I think what they are saying is, if the gun is put together and you can't see the modified part your OK. So I guess is what they are saying on Glocks or XD's or any semi auto, you can convert to dubble action only, you can drop in the 3.5 conectors, light firing pins, etc.. because as long as you can't see the part who is to know the difference? I think that opens the doors wide??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I think that opens the doors wide??? If that is the case, It sure does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) The word "Visible" is the key. You can do anything internal as long as it is not visible. You could take the Glock completely apart and replace everything on the inside of the frame. As long as it passes the trigger weight test you're good. Alan~^~ Edited December 21, 2009 by Alan550 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The word "Visible" is the key.You can do anything internal as long as it is not visible. You could take the Glock completely apart and replace everything on the inside of the frame. As long as it passes the trigger weight test you're good. Says who? I can choose to read it that way. But, it sure doesn't sound that way from the wording. I don't really care one way or the other. But, it needs to be clear. So, can a shooter...for instance... On a Para LDA (1911 with a DA first shot) - Weld and refit the bushing? - Weld and refit the lugs? - Tighten/adjust the slide to frame fit ? - Internally lighten the slide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Says who? I can choose to read it that way. But, it sure doesn't sound that way from the wording. I don't really care one way or the other. But, it needs to be clear. So, can a shooter...for instance... On a Para LDA (1911 with a DA first shot) - Weld and refit the bushing? - Weld and refit the lugs? - Tighten/adjust the slide to frame fit ? - Internally lighten the slide? Says the NRA and the English language. I don't know how else to say it. It says what it says. If NRA wants it to read differently then they need to change the wording of the rules. If you could find a 5" LDA then you could do as you mention, although I wouldn't lighten the slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Says the NRA and the English language. So, that is your interpretation of what it says then. (I wouldn't know who to ask at the NRA. Who decides such rulings?) I'm fine with you being right. But, people here have read the exact same words and the meaning isn't so clear to them. It needs to be clear, that's all. Then people can decide if their "production" gun can compete on a level playing field or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 (edited) I agree that the "...no visible internal or external modifications..." verbiage is vague. The fact that the rule uses the words "visible" and "internal" seems to indicate that modifications which are visible when the internals are revealed are prohibited. Logically, if they only wanted to prohibit those modifications that were externally visible, NRA would not have mentioned the word "internal" at all and would instead have said something like, "...no externally visible modifications..." I also think the interpretation allowing someone to convert a DA/SA revolver to DA only appears very questionable. How can it be in the spirit of Production Class to fundamentally alter the mechanism of a firearm in order to make it "legal" for Production Class? Edited December 22, 2009 by mpolans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 The way the visible internal reads, even simple polishing could be considered illegal. Mirror finish definately didn't come from the factory that way. Seems to ban even the simplest action and/or reliability work. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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