relictrader Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 QUOTE]I am really starting to be confused as to what direction you are trying to lead us here........) I here from most POST here that that entry level guns will outshoot most shooters skills. Two of my 500 members have been given 2 or more $6,000.00 Sponsered Master guns that are being upgraded weekly by Factory for accuracy and other things. If I was a Master shooter with a better than average self smithed gun,would I be able to compete with the factory shooters?{upchucks before an after included} The pot $ money steel shooters say that accuracy pays them big time. GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Ok. It sounds like you want to shoot steel. First, having a $20,000 gun is not going to help if you have no skill in shooting a pistol. That's like saying because you own an INDY car you can win the INDY 500. Second, a $6,000 gun should not need "upgraded weekly by factory for accuracy and other things". A Brazos custom, Dawson Precision, S_I (STI or SVI) or any other custom shouldn't need any work for a long time after being built, and even if it's a Tanfoglio or CZ, it should be the same. Accuracy on steel is completely different than accuracy on paper in a USPSA match, or in Bullseye. On steel, all you have to do is hit the steel, ANYWHERE. USPSA and Bullseye are different creatures, there you have to hit specific areas of the target for score. Just about any decent gun out there is more accurate than the person shooting it. Asking what the best pistol out there is like asking everyone in the forum what their favorite meal is. You'll get a different answer from everyone. THERE IS NO MAGIC GUN OR BULLET. As for "If I was a Master shooter with a better than average self smithed gun,would I be able to compete with the factory shooters?, well, if you were a Master, you would already be competing. They don't give out "Masters" for saying you can shoot good, if that were the case, we'd all be masters. So yes, if you were a Master shooter, you would be able to compete with the Factory shooters, but the only way to get there is practice and shoot in matches. Thinking you are going to go to a match and win is complete folly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirpy Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 From what I hear, the Para GI Expert at $599 is very accurate out of the box even though it is not what most of us would call race ready for USPSA Single Stack or IDPA CDP action! If I were just starting out I probably would get one of those and some good mags and ammo or reloading components and practice. Oh, and some new shooting glasses for these old eyes. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relictrader Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 First, having a $20,000 gun is not going to help........DOES THIS MEAN ANY ENTRY LEVEL GUN WILL? Second, a $6,000 gun should not need "upgraded weekly by factory for accuracy and other things". A Brazos custom, Dawson Precision, S_I (STI or SVI) or any other custom shouldn't need any work for a long time . .............................. .......WHEN ASKING WHERE THE OTHER GUNS are DURING PRACTING....SENT TO FACTORY...ANSWERED> Accuracy on steel is completely different than accuracy on paper in a USPSA match, or in Bullseye. On steel, all you have to do is hit the steel, ANYWHERE. USPSA and Bullseye are different creatures, there you have to hit specific areas of the target for score........SHOOT STEEL IN FOOT...........BE OUT 1/2in USPSA.......SAND BAG SOME MORE FOR NEXT WEEK! As for "If I was a Master shooter with a better than average self smithed gun,would I be able to compete with the factory shooter......... Thinking you are going to go to a match and win is complete folly.................................. TOP USA SHOOTERS WITH BEST WEAPONS MONEY CAN BUY ARE SPONSERED AND EXPECTED TO WIN...PERIOD! FOLLY IF ONE DOESEN'T EXPECT TO WIN,WHY PLAY WITH A DEFEATED ATTIDUDE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I give up......you win. Go win your match, beat Todd J, Rob L., Jerry M., all without practicing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 First, having a $20,000 gun is not going to help........DOES THIS MEAN ANY ENTRY LEVEL GUN WILL? Second, a $6,000 gun should not need "upgraded weekly by factory for accuracy and other things". A Brazos custom, Dawson Precision, S_I (STI or SVI) or any other custom shouldn't need any work for a long time . .............................. .......WHEN ASKING WHERE THE OTHER GUNS are DURING PRACTING....SENT TO FACTORY...ANSWERED> Accuracy on steel is completely different than accuracy on paper in a USPSA match, or in Bullseye. On steel, all you have to do is hit the steel, ANYWHERE. USPSA and Bullseye are different creatures, there you have to hit specific areas of the target for score........SHOOT STEEL IN FOOT...........BE OUT 1/2in USPSA.......SAND BAG SOME MORE FOR NEXT WEEK! As for "If I was a Master shooter with a better than average self smithed gun,would I be able to compete with the factory shooter......... Thinking you are going to go to a match and win is complete folly.................................. TOP USA SHOOTERS WITH BEST WEAPONS MONEY CAN BUY ARE SPONSERED AND EXPECTED TO WIN...PERIOD! FOLLY IF ONE DOESEN'T EXPECT TO WIN,WHY PLAY WITH A DEFEATED ATTIDUDE? Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) Holy crap. Can we somehow require that everyone learns how to use the button before they're allowed to post? ..Several of you guys are starting to give me a headache... Why are you so obsessed with accuracy? Theoretically you need a gun that always hits the Alpha, if aimed at the Alpha. And (theoretically) anything better than that is just gravy. As a newbie shooter, I'd bet money that most of the reason for your six inch groups lies with the user. Take the money you're about to dump into match-grade widgets and load practice ammo with it. Shoot at 25 yards until your hands hurt. Then go back and do it again. Edited August 1, 2009 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relictrader Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 {QUOTE}button before they're allowed to post? are starting to give me a headache... Why are you so obsessed with accuracy? I'd bet money that most of the reason for your six inch groups lies with the user. Sorry for the confusion and headache for those 3spc/op's sniper tours left me computer dumb,but you have to admit that YOU posted with out reading all the post .Some members put real sincere thoughts into them. Accuracy is like books,study the right books,and that will give you the best tools of the trade to take over OBAMA'S job.Read only funny papers and stay a truck driver. GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 {QUOTE}button before they're allowed to post?are starting to give me a headache... Why are you so obsessed with accuracy? I'd bet money that most of the reason for your six inch groups lies with the user. Sorry for the confusion and headache for those 3spc/op's sniper tours left me computer dumb,but you have to admit that YOU posted with out reading all the post .Some members put real sincere thoughts into them. Accuracy is like books,study the right books,and that will give you the best tools of the trade to take over OBAMA'S job.Read only funny papers and stay a truck driver. GG If all you are going to do argue with what people have said for their answers to your questions, then read your books, never pratice, go and win a national championship, and quit posting nonsensical questions on here. Computer dumb is one thing, but not listening to the answers or answering the questions we posed to you here are something else. How many times has someone asked someone where you are located? How many times has someone asked what you are loading your rounds on? How many times has someone asked what discipline you are planning to shoot? I don't even think you have mentioned what caliber you are shooting. FWIW, you will NOT get to be a better pistol shooter by reading a library full of books, the only way to get better is to practice, whether it be dry fire or live fire. If you have no ability to shoot, no pistol, however expensive, will make you shoot better. If you do not follow advice on re-loading, whether by book or by an expert in the matter, you WILL eventually blow yourself or your gun up. Just because you read a book on how to pilot an airplane, does that make you a pilot? Or if you read a book on surgery, does that make you a surgeon? Memphis Mechanic is right, pratice is the only way to get better. Theory is all well and good, but without practice, you are just another arm chair quarterback. If you are truly a SPC/OPS sniper as you stated (somehow I doubt this, sniper school is very disciplined in all aspects of shooting, including pistol), you should know this. The Army/Marine Corp?Navy SEALS just don't hand you a rifle 'cause you can shoot it straight and say" Go take out this target". I have said my piece and wash my hands of this topic..... You have been given some very good advice, but you choose to argue with it and or ignore it. Good luck in the future, Don't blow yourself up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I'm gonna lock this up for now pending some discussion on it by the moderators. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Moderator note: OK...we are going to open this up and hope it goes somewhere. - We can leave out the sniper/SF talk..or anything along those lines. That isn't why this forum is here. It's here so we can share and help improve the shooting. - Please leave any bravado and bickering at the door. relictrader, the folks here are willing and able to help each other out and new members as well. Please try to make it easy for them to help you out. If you would, address the questions they have asked. They are only trying to get information so they can better guide you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 These groups were sent to me from the Army using their barrel test fixture. Schuemann AET 45 bushing barrel, 10 round groups at 50 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Get'em Duck Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I feel more confused now then I was when I started reading this thread???? I don't know where you live or what you want to shoot. But I have a kimber custom target II in .45 acp. It has been a great entry level single stack gun. I'd like to move up to a Wilson or STI single stack but right now money wont allow it. My advice is find a gun you can shoot well and go to a match and have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 BTW, Pot roast, mashed potatoes and gravy, green beans, and apple pie ala mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Abrahams Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Just go out and shoot some matches for petes sake!!! This thead has been like trying to explain the color red to someone who refuses to open their eyes. So open your eyes, go shoot some matches (for whatever shooting sport you are talking about) and all your questions and misguided theory will be straightened out at the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Given that the OP seems not to be a native English speaker, and that his command of it is not what we usually see here, I think I, at least, would probably be at a complete loss in HIS native language, and so I will venture to answer him anyway, hoping it makes some sense. I think the OP is confusing RIFLE accuracy (which he seems to be shooting now) with PISTOL accuracy, which is the sport he wants to try. Of course they are not comparable. However, with the possible exception of one Glock I once shot, the best out of the box accuracy in a pistol that I personally have experienced was with the XD family of guns, and the XDm in any caliber is better than most, can be had for under $700, will compete in at least 3 divisions, will function with almost any ammo, and can be easily modified with aftermarket parts should the owner so desire at a fraction of the cost of an STI or other "competitive" guns. If the OP can forget about "rifle like" accuracy, and wrap his head around the fact that few people can shoot better than 2-3" at 50 yards while actually HOLDING a pistol (the gun may actually be able to shoot better than that!), then I think some progress can be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigstick0000 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 My first gun for ipsc was a springfield champion, really not the greatest choice, but got it cheap. Then I bought a springfield rob leatham TGO .45 acp. Shot limited ten and it is an awesome gun, a real tack driver. But I spent about 1800.00 on it. Worth every penny, right out of the box. I then bought an svi infinity, 40 s&w, for limited. Came with the test target, under an inch group at 50 yards. Awesome gun, but paid $2900. My latest venture is a brazos custom open in 38 super comp. Most awesome gun I have ever shot, a running machine. I won't say what I paid, but worth every penny. You get what you pay for. Every gun I bought was worth every penny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Can we close this thread until relictrader comes back to the forum? That dude was hilarious, and every time I see this thread brought back up I have to click on it to see if he has returned. That guy was just flat-out funny -- nonsensical, but funny nonetheless. Whether he intended to be that humorous is a whole other question. Bring back relictrader!!! -br Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relictrader Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 Thanks, AKA,funny -- nonsensical believe I will ! Our Club has weeded out all the spray an shoot RAMBO TYPE members,and kept the one's that want to get better with every shot...this help their kids understand that life is not a hit with lots of misses. We have several who can spray and shoot a raged hole,but with Shotguns it's control spray and lead. I shot the world live bird matches for 12 years and made good money doing it,but pattern shooting each load before shoots was important and ment winning or going home.I will always remember a big match shoot in Spain where factory ammo was required and i had a primer fail last day that cost $106,000. I shot a steel match the other day with a borrowed STI 6in 9mm loaded with a "WOW"160 gr. hard hitting molly lead RN with no recoil ,each load checked for equal weight and seating(same headstamps)useing 3.4 gr. Solo 1250 shot 1 1/4in. five shot from Ranson rest at 25 yds. (QUOTE;GrumpyOne............you are just another arm chair quarterback) FOR THOSE THAT FEEL OFFENDED BY MY COMMENTS I'M FOREVER SORRY! I find something positive in everyone, but In my 500 member club some are not welcome and are escorted bodily off property by local police members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 relictrader, what's the name of your club and where is it located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Are you using some kind of translator program? I know on one of the other forums I was on, someone who was not a native English speaker was using a translator program which ended up confusing a whole bunch of people. Finally when another member from his country of origin was able to understand this and step in, they were able to articulate the members questions and responses much better. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 relictrader, what's the name of your club and where is it located? Are you using some kind of translator program? I know on one of the other forums I was on, someone who was not a native English speaker was using a translator program which ended up confusing a whole bunch of people. Finally when another member from his country of origin was able to understand this and step in, they were able to articulate the members questions and responses much better.~Mitch I believe English is not Relic's native language (as it isn't mine) and his posts definitely look as he was either doing literal (word by word dictionary) translations of his thoughts or using a translation software. Relic, you mentioned shooting matches in Spain. If Spanish is you vernacular, I may be able to help you transmit your thoughts. "Si su idioma principal es el Español, le puedo ayudar a hacerse entender aquí en el foro. Sólo déjeme saber si necesita mi ayuda." Saludos, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relictrader Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 Are you using some kind of translator program? ~Mitch MITCH it tells me you are a follower by mimicking what others say..I feel that the gun bussiness gets "Drive By Effect"bad press when shooters follow the others and shoot to see lead in the air or the rambo effect with the AR's. Being a family clubb, I see the strain on the mothers with children faces when the rapid bang-bang starts up.These mothers & dads are safety first gun owners that want to past down guns to their children. One reasonable thought on "Lead in The AIR" mentality might be how poorly the remanufactured $17/$20 per box 50 Shoot ....The ones I tested are not worth that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 If you are into accuracy enough to pick the best 3 of 5 rifle barrels to compete with, you are going to be happier spending the money on a Les Baer that has an accuracy guarantee. Make sure you can shoot a good group at 25 yds before you blame the gun, I know lots of folks that can't can't shoot a good group off a solid rest for various reasons. Finally, if English isn't your second language, a little more thought and proof-reading of your questions might generate more helpful responses, as would the requested info. Lot's of knowledge on this site for those who will take the effort to pose thoughtful questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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