Strong hand only shooting while on a freestyle COF

[CHA-LEE]

I have been exploring the use of strong hand only shooting on key targets during a free style COF to see if it can save me some time. For example, if you have a bunch of targets to engage on the move to the left, but one open & close target on the right, I will shoot the left hand targets with a two handed grip with my upper body biased in the direction of the left side targets. Then I will break my grip and swing the gun to the right strong hand only and engage the lone target while still keeping my upper body biased to the left. Then swing the gun back to the left, rebuild my grip and keep moving along the left side as I engage the rest of the targets. For some reason I keep thinking that if you can manage the recoil of the strong hand only shooting fairly well (sub .25 splits done accurately) it has to be some kind of advantage to engage a one off target(s) strong hand only of you can keep your upper body or movement biased in an alternate direction that favors the next shooting position.

Am I wasting time on this or is it always better to use a two handed grip whenever possible? I realize that if you can’t manage the recoil well, shoot fast, or accurately doing it strong hand only it’s a complete waste of time and points. But strong hand only shooting seems to be a strength of mine and I want to try and leverage that at the matches when I can for an advantage. Is this a bad thing? Am I teaching myself a bad practice? Making it into more than it really is?

I rarely see shooters leverage strong hand only shooting during a freestyle COF where shooting strong hand only isn’t mandated by the stage description or by props. So it makes me wonder if I am making more of this than I really should.

Chime in and let me know what you think…..

[Duane Thomas]

It's always good to think outside the box. Even if you eventually go back inside the box, i.e. go back to doing it the way everyone else does, you'll better understand WHY everyone does it that way. And who know, you may come up with something that works better - for you. Who cares how it works for anyone else?

Having said that, I would also say that, unless it's mandated by the COF, or a situation absolutely forces you into it, IMO you are invariably better off keeping two hands on the gun. It's simply not that hard to learn and master techniques that will allow you do exactly what you're referencing, while moving engage targets to any direction while keeping your momentum in the direction you want, AND keep both hands on the gun. Check out the 3GM² DVD, especially the section on movement by Max Michel.

[CHA-LEE]

Maybe I am thinking of stuff like this because I am a big dude and it takes quite a bit of effort to aggressively saw my upper body from left to right quickly. Verses sticking to one side and swinging the gun to the right SHO to engage a lone target as I am starting to move in the opposite direction for the next shooting position. Granted, there are very few free style COF’s where this comes into play as an “Advantage” for me. But it still happens from time to time. I know that I have begun to look at COF’s differently with a bias to putting myself into unique shooting positions to engage multiple targets SHO and end up saving a few seconds on the COF verses other shooters.

I also like using SHO shooting more frequently in my practice sessions to the point where I am 100% confident in shooting SHO on just about any target condition. This is a HUGE plus at some local matches where SHO shooting is forced by the stage description and many shooters really struggle with it.

Listed below is a link to a stage were I started out by engaging the first target SHO while advancing the other direction. Did this save me time against other shooters? Maybe or Maybe not? Its hard to quantify because everyone has different advantages/disadvantages over others. But this is a good example of how I have been trying to incorporate some SHO shooting into free style COF’s.

[G-ManBart]

We had a stage a couple of months back that had a wall on your right with very close, low targets behind it. At the end of the wall there was a door you had to open and go through. The wall was high enough that I would have had a hard time shooting over it with both hands so I just shot them SHO, which also made it easier to reach for the door with my left hand after the last target.

Edit: I found the video and uploaded it to my Youtube. I got a little hosey and had two makeup shots on steel and I seemed to nearly freeze coming out of the second port. Oh, I remembered that this was a reshoot...with the pain that so often goes along with them

Edited July 28, 2009 by G-ManBart

[Flexmoney]

Set it up. Put it on the timer. Let us know!

[boz1911]

Set it up. Put it on the timer. Let us know!

Try it with targets at different distances also. Close and personal targets I see no problem, longer targets split times may not make it worthwhile.

[ebg3]

Set it up. Put it on the timer. Let us know!

This is the only way you can really tell if SHO is quicker for you. Run the scenario both ways several times and the timer will tell the truth. I predict you will be faster keeping a two handed grip.

EG

[Graham Smith]

I shot a match recently that had a few places where that could be done. In all cases, the targets were close enough to make it tempting. Some of the better shooters did it that way (including at least one shooting a close target to their left) with good results. I only did that one place where there were two targets behind a wall and it was faster to reach around the right and shoot both one handed than shoot one from each side two handed.

Given that practice shooting one handed is always time well spent, I think it is a very worthwhile idea to train to shoot this way. It's one more trick you can pull out of the bag when needed.

Regarding the 3GM2 DVD, I'm going to have to find that one.

[CHA-LEE]

I have also used SHO shooting when engaging targets right after opening a door. That way I can open the door with my support hand and then engage targets right away SHO, usually before the door is fully open and I am still moving into the position. Of course this usually only works when you have a really close target just inside the door, but its still an option.

I have setup back to back tests in live fire practice between using a two handed grip and sawing back and forth from side to side, verses transitioning between two handed and SHO from left to right. Sure you can look at the raw time to compare the two methods, but I also usually witness a movement difference between the two as well. For example, if I setup a practice COF were I am advancing as I am shooting, I almost always end up further down range by the time I am done shooting when using a SHO method. How do you really quantify this? Two handed is a little faster on the clock but I am a step or two behind SHO shooting where I end up with a little longer time. Currently I have been picking the shooting method, whatever it may be, that gets me to the end of the COF as soon as possible. If shooting SHO gets me a couple steps closer to the end of the COF faster, then I am going to pick that method. Obviously shot difficulty is a factor as well as shooting speed. If there is a whole row of targets that are close I will use a two handed grip because I can mow them down faster and more accurately with a two handed grip. But if there is a single target, that is a fairly easy shot, I might give it a go SHO.

I have done a lot of searching on YouTube and other video sites looking for top shooters leveraging SHO during a freestyle COF, but I am yet to find a video showing it. Maybe they are doing it and its not caught on film? Maybe it is poor form to transition to SHO during a freestyle COF and they know better than to do it? I just find it hard to believe that with all of the fast movement that is needed doing the usual field course that SHO wouldn’t be leveraged more often. The way I see it if you can keep your core body movement going in the direction of the next shooting position while shooting from a somewhat awkward arm position (SHO) how can’t it be an advantage if you can get your hits AND get moving sooner/faster to the next shooting position?

[g34]

I have done a lot of searching on YouTube and other video sites looking for top shooters leveraging SHO during a freestyle COF, but I am yet to find a video showing it. Maybe they are doing it and its not caught on film?

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but on page 38 of the Sept./Oct. 2008 issue of Front Sight, there is a picture of Max Michel shooting SHO on a field course. Maybe it was mandated. I don't know.

-Kevin

[38supPat]

Set it up like this. Start by shooting a target from a box, leave the box and shoot the targets on the move like you want too, say 2 on the left, one on the right and one on the left, then finish by entering a box and shooting a final target. That way you can see the total effect, time and score. If getting closer to the final position is a benefit, you will see it. I think what you'll see though is that while you are closer to the final position, it is because it took you longer to get the shooting done, which means you shot slower, instead of getting the shooting done and then MOVING to the last position.

One thing concerns me though, and I think we are all guilty of this from time to time. Although you say the timer shows that you are slower doing it the way you want to, you are so intent on using it that you are trying to find a way to justify it. You have to be willing to give up on a pet theory if it proves to be slower in actual practice.

[Jasonub]

i shoot 2 handed always unless im forced to shoot strong or weak hand only. like holding a port open or the cof dictates it.

Shooting 1 hand only on stages takes more time than shooting with 2. Splits,transitions, accuracy are way much faster with 2 hands. Dont take my word for it, time yourself

[CHA-LEE]

Pat Harrison> I think that your comments are spot on. Maybe I am taking this “Pet Project” a little too far? I know that I have forced SHO shooting in some match stages where it ended up slowing me down. But I still gained that experience as something to “Not” do for the given shooting conditions. Usually when it failed to work correctly I was either trying to shoot stuff that was too far away or too tight of a shot. I guess I am lured to it because I can shoot pretty fast SHO and fairly accurately compared to most of the local shooters I compete with. But this could also be a big fish in a small pond factor. That is why I posed the question here to get the opinion of a more broad group of shooters.

I don’t want to force the shooting in a particular way. I still want to “Let the shooting happen” when the buzzer goes off. But I guess I wouldn’t be upset if my subconscious mind came up with a SHO target engagement in the heat of the moment during a stage run, knowing that I can do it pretty proficiently.

I am not trying to go all Action Hero and make stages more dramatic than they need to be. I am just exploring where my mind wanders. Right now my brain wants to see were or if SHO shooting can be used as a solid benefit to a freestyle COF.

I recently took a class from Manny Bragg and asked him about this very thing and his comments on the subject were pretty simple. “If its not an obvious advantage over executing a two handed grip, then its nothing more than an unneeded risk” followed by “If you are using SHO shooting to compensate for a weakness of transitioning a two handed grip from side to side, then just work on your side to side transitions until they are up to where they should be”. That pretty much sums up the final solution of work on the “Suck” until you don’t suck at it any more (transitioning from side to side with a two handed grip).

But even with this obvious solution my brain still wants to mull over the SHO option. I have always been suborn I guess

[Mistral404]

I saw you do this technique at the High Desert Classic on stage 1. It cost you a bunch of time. It was obvious. You spent an large amount of time acquiring the target for your first shot and your follow up shots were significantly slower.

As I remember, the last set of targets were taken from the right side of a barrier. You had to bend around to get the targets on the left and in the middle.

[SA Friday]

I have done a lot of searching on YouTube and other video sites looking for top shooters leveraging SHO during a freestyle COF, but I am yet to find a video showing it. Maybe they are doing it and its not caught on film?

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but on page 38 of the Sept./Oct. 2008 issue of Front Sight, there is a picture of Max Michel shooting SHO on a field course. Maybe it was mandated. I don't know.

-Kevin

There's a vid of Matt Burkette shooting Area 2 in 2006 on YouTube. On one of the stages he takes a target SHO on his way into some labrynth thing. It's fast, easy to miss.

[gino_aki]

The one time I did this that resulted in a much better time compared to the others shooting that day also involved a bit of gamesmanship...the stage was a non symmetrical lateral movement one with start boxes at either end. Near the midpoint was a door that activated a disappearing turner with another full target next to it both at ~ 4 yds. I pulled open the door, hosed the full target strong hand and then proceeded with the rest of the stage where I believe I came in second.

I guess I'm saying the answer to your question is that it's a situational thing...the target was close so I didn't have to take my support hand off the doorknob, I probably saved the most time not having to wait for the turner, and my reload right after the door was maybe a mite quicker because my left hand was already down near my pouches.

[38supPat]

Never rule something out without trying it, even if it doesn't work in most situations, it's one more club in your bag if you need it, the trick is knowing what it will work for and where it won't...

[CHA-LEE]

SA Friday> I found the video you are talking about and listed the link below. His SHO engagement was at minte mark 6:09 in the video. That target was close enough that he could have used a knife to poke holes in the target

[CHA-LEE]

Mistral404> As I said before, some times it works and some times it does not. But at least I was willing to give it a try right?

[Joe4d]

Classifier 0603

http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/06-03.pdf

not free style but this one I have put on the timer, and am about .1 faster shooting the second five strong hand only.

Basically draw shoot first five at the far target reload and shoot the second near point blank target strong side only, this is a really high hit factor, you need a 10 to hit B class in limited.

[CHA-LEE]

Joe4d> Interesting. I know I would be faster with a two handed grip on that classifier because I could churn out the rounds at a sub .15 sec split pace using both hands. When the splits drop below .20 shooting SHO the accuracy starts to go down hill quickly because it’s very hard to not "milk" the gun while rowing the trigger fast and trying to manage the recoil. At least for me it is.

Edited July 29, 2009 by CHA-LEE

[CHA-LEE]

I found another SHO shooting example in my scrubbing of YouTube. This is Flexmoney and it looks like he is performing a make up shot SHO at the end of the COF.

[chrisa006]

There are a couple of examples of Rob Leathem doing it on I think the 05 Nationals video. He opens a door and shoots the first close target before he gets the support hand up . My guess is he isn't doing it because it is slower.

[Justsomeguy]

We had a stage a couple of months back that had a wall on your right with very close, low targets behind it. At the end of the wall there was a door you had to open and go through. The wall was high enough that I would have had a hard time shooting over it with both hands so I just shot them SHO, which also made it easier to reach for the door with my left hand after the last target.

Edit: I found the video and uploaded it to my Youtube. I got a little hosey and had two makeup shots on steel and I seemed to nearly freeze coming out of the second port. Oh, I remembered that this was a reshoot...with the pain that so often goes along with them

That was a hellava course of fire there Bart! I don't know how you would have shot those low targets 2 handed anyway over that wall. I wonder what kind of hits you got on 'em? Twas pretty zippy though!

[Flexmoney]

I found another SHO shooting example in my scrubbing of YouTube. This is Flexmoney and it looks like he is performing a make up shot SHO at the end of the COF.

D-oh! I got dragged into this one?

Yeah...I had only put one shot on one of those targets in the next to last position.

IIRC, that was a wide open target that I could have spit on. I had direct 90 degree lateral movement, and it was on my strong side. I had no shots that had to follow that. (all of this is arm-chair, Monday morning eval.)

It just worked out that that is how I shot it. Had some of those circumstances been different, I probably would have ended up shooting it some other way.

As a rule of thumb, I always want to shoot from my most normal and practiced grip and stance. Like in basketball...given the choice...I'd square up to the bucket and shoot a nice clean shot with great follow through.

With the gun, if I can get into my normal grip and stance, then the gun is going to shoot just like it always does. It is going to feel just like it always does. It is going to recoil just like it always does. It is going to return to the target just like it always does.

Let me give an example with opening a door. If I whip open a door and shoot targets just inside the door with one hand...and I then need to shoot other targets...then I have to get me support hand back on the gun somehow. But, doing that is now a task that is different from the norm. I am not establishing my two hand grip where and how I always do. Instead, the gun is already extended. I have to locate it differently and place my support hand on it in a different manner.

All stuff like that can be a trade-off. I'm not for or against any of it. Just realize the factors. And, since you can...put it to test. Run it for time and points and see.