Shooter shooting production, gets bumped to open

[steel1212]

I understand the argument, but until I am told I am wrong, and that could easily happen, I am going to say that when you fired that first shot in Production you are defacto minor.

Not exactly the same, but somewhat analogous is the chronograph. Once you are chronographed minor, you are always minor. Even if you change guns, with the RM's permission, you are still minor.

I would use that as guidance in this situation. The first shot in Production is minor by default. Too allow a shooter to change that due to being placed in Open because of an equipment issue seems to me to be the wrong approach.

Of cousrse that is why the RM is paid the big bucks to make those decisions. Err.....wait a minute.......

5.1.7.3 The competitor’s replacement handgun and its appropriate

ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of

whether or not the original handgun was previously tested.

5.1.7.4 If the original handgun/ammunition was not previously tested,

and if the original handgun has already been used on a stage, and

can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an

inability to safely fire the handgun), then the original handgun

and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing.

If a shooter declared Open Major and the original gun was tested and went minor and broke, say the competitor had a cracked chamber and was bleeding off pressure causing his gun to go minor and then finally give up the goose on him (not a hypothetical, I've seen it happen) and he brought in a replacement gun that went Major as it was suppose to with the same match ammo, are you going to score him minor for the rest of the match? If he's at minor now, why take him back to the chrono?

If you chrono with your first gun and have to use a substitute you are required to go to the chrono, so you can shoot Major the first time around and not be Major for the match, why make someone Minor for the match unless they are shooting in Production?

Bobby if your open gun goes minor at the chrono how is the RM to know that it was because of a cracked chamber and not just the gun shooting minor? If your gun was just shooting minor your, theoretically, going to have had an advantage on the stages you have already shot. So when your bring out your back up gun you have to make sure it at least makes minor. If not I know there is people out there that would try to take advantage of shooting minor most of the day and then, "oops my super flat poppel holed to death gun broke, shucks, can I use my no popple holed gun for the last stage..lookie there it made 165.1"

[mactiger]

I have to respectfully disagree with Troy on this one. I can see another RMI rule discussion coming up shortly.

While it is true that the PF in Produciton is assigned by default, IMO he accepted it when he signed up for Production. When he fired that first shot he was defacto minor. Just clicking your heels three times and saying "I'm not minor anymore" isn't going to get it with me.

Of course I'm getting cranky in my old age

Gary,

"What if"... I'm shooting a normal .40 load in Production and get bumped to open? Am I still scored minor because I started in Production?

Yeah, what he said. I should read more of these before I post.

Troy

[Gary Stevens]

5.1.7.2 says a competitor when substituting one handgun for another must not receive a competitive advantage.

If the shooter has already chronographed minor, and then for some reason substitutes another gun that chronographes major he/she would be gaining a competitive advantage (points out of the A zone per shot).

Additionally item 38 of Appendix C2 says "if the resultant power factor fails to meet the Major power factor floor of the relevant Divison, the competitor's entire match scores will be recalculated as Minor, if achieved.

[boz1911]

Open, Minor, same equipment, unless the gun breaks and the RM approves a like replacment. Let's get real, the competitor declared minor at signup and we have to accept that by the rulebook. The bump to open was a severe penalty. If I go minor at a chrono, I shoot minor for the entire match irregardless if the ammo I used the day before was major. How can it be the other way around??

[mactiger]

Ah, but that's the rub here: the competitor didn't have to declare anything at signup, just that he was shooting Production. It doesn't matter what your actual PF is, it's all scored minor. So, you could actually be shooting major, even chrono-verified major, yet be scored minor because it's what the division rule says, not what you declared. By entering Production, IMO, you accept that your hits will be scored minor, but you don't necessarily declare minor. There is a difference.

I also don't see where any rules support the "first shot minor, all shots minor" statement. In fact, if you do have a chronograph, and a competitor declares Major, he's scored that way unless and until he goes minor at chrono, then his scores are changed. In the absence of a chronograph, I think you have to take the competitor's word for it, even though he may have started out in Production, he could actually be shooting a major load. Several people have pointed out that scenario.

Suppose this happened at Nationals, and the competitor was still in Production until he hit chrono, where the CRO discovered he'd modified his gun and busted the Production Division rules. He goes major at chrono. He gets moved to Open, but what PF do you use? If I was the RM, I'd use his major PF, because that's what he chronographed. No chrono? Gotta take his word for it, IMO.

Troy

Edited July 17, 2009 by mactiger

[Spray_N_Prey]

Ah, but that's the rub here: the competitor didn't have to declare anything at signup, just that he was shooting Production. It doesn't matter what your actual PF is, it's all scored minor.

Troy

that's a good point. I see plenty of people that don't mark minor when shooting production and EZWIN doesn't even allow you to put major when scoring production, it darkens out the option box.

[boz1911]

I guess I am thinking about the signup sheets most of our local clubs use where major/minor is actually marked. I would guess that most production shooters mark "minor" irregardless of what their actual power factor is. Perhaps this thread will start a new trend at signup?? Much like I see a lot of shooters nowadays holding onto their gun until they hear "Range is Clear"...

[ac4wordplay]

There is a question posted in this months Front Sight magazine in the NROI section (page 24) that asks about a competitor that gets bumped to Open Division and he wants to switch guns and use his Open gun since he is now competing in the Open Division. Reminds me of this scenario.

Yes, me too. J. Amidon's statement was (paraphrased): if bumped from Production to Open one can't switch to an optic/comped pistol.

I wonder if this would be (in general terms) not allowing an equipment switch that offers a competitive advantage.

under some of the logic..

if you signed up for production which is minor and have to shoot minor when bumped to open..why wouldn't you have to keep shooting 10rnds instead of loading your mags to capacity.

already at nationals..shooters have loaded mag up to capacity when bumped to open.

If bumped from Production to Open, can one change equipment to gain competitive advantage?

- can one load mags to full (>10 round Production limit) capacity? (According to eerw above, this is happening/allowed.)

- can one use 170mm mags?

- can one change from a Production compliant type/location holster - or mag carriers, etc. - to the (Production non-compliant) "speed" type/location?

ac

Edited July 17, 2009 by ac4wordplay

[Flexmoney]

Just a couple of data points:

- We had about a dozen Sky Marshalls join USPSA and shoot the Ohio Section match one year. It was their first ever match...must have been the year after 9-11. They all shot their duty guns and ammo in Production. 357Sig

- With all the 40 I used to shoot in Production, I am sure that I have shot matches with Major pf ammo.

- I see the occasional 45 in Production from time to time...likely with factory ammo or equivalent.

[mactiger]

I'd say yes to all of the changes mentioned below, except for the holster move, because you are not changing guns or sights, and the magazines/# rounds loaded/holster type all fit the division. There are no rules that say you can't change those from stage to stage, other than the division requirements, and since the competitor has been moved to Open, I can't find a reason or a rule that prevents making those changes. You still must shoot the same gun and type of sights that you started with, otherwise you are breaking rule 5.1.7, but that rule doesn't cover magazines, type holster, etc., and it applies to a broken or unsafe gun, not one that doesn't meet the original division requirements. 5.2.5.3 would prevent you from changing your holster and magazine holder positions, I think.

Just my unofficial opinion, of course.

Troy

There is a question posted in this months Front Sight magazine in the NROI section (page 24) that asks about a competitor that gets bumped to Open Division and he wants to switch guns and use his Open gun since he is now competing in the Open Division. Reminds me of this scenario.

Yes, me too. J. Amidon's statement was (paraphrased): if bumped from Production to Open one can't switch to an optic/comped pistol.

I wonder if this would be (in general terms) not allowing an equipment switch that offers a competitive advantage.

under some of the logic..

if you signed up for production which is minor and have to shoot minor when bumped to open..why wouldn't you have to keep shooting 10rnds instead of loading your mags to capacity.

already at nationals..shooters have loaded mag up to capacity when bumped to open.

If bumped from Production to Open, can one change equipment to gain competitive advantage?

- can one load mags to full (>10 round Production limit) capacity? (According to eerw above, this is happening/allowed.)

- can one use 170mm mags?

- can one change from a Production compliant type/location holster - or mag carriers, etc. - to the (Production non-compliant) "speed" type/location?

ac

[sperman]

The story contains:

1) A competitor willing to participate in the shenanigans that will get him thrown into open class.

2) This competitor is hated by everyone so much that they would rather throw him into open than let him fix whatever it is and stay in production.

3) This person then has the audacity to declare major which you cannot disprove because you have no chrono.

I've heard of several competitors who accidentally grabbed the mag with 11 rounds in it on a stage where you start with the gun unloaded. I wouldn't automatically assume the shooter is involved in shenanigans. Nor would I assume he is hated because those in charge decided to enforce the rules.

[MoNsTeR]

Ah, but that's the rub here: the competitor didn't have to declare anything at signup, just that he was shooting Production. It doesn't matter what your actual PF is, it's all scored minor. So, you could actually be shooting major, even chrono-verified major, yet be scored minor because it's what the division rule says, not what you declared. By entering Production, IMO, you accept that your hits will be scored minor, but you don't necessarily declare minor. There is a difference.

I think this is plainly false. Just because Minor is the only power factor option for Production doesn't mean you aren't declaring it during signup.

[JeffWard]

For safety reasons you can only shoot 9mm or .38 super major in an "OPEN" gun. There is no such thing as Major 9mm or .38 Super in Single stack, Limited or L10 because of safety issues. Therefore it would also not be safe in a Production gun. He's MINOR.

Lots of guys shoot major in guns "built for minor". M&P's will shoot 9mm Major comfortably, and lots of guys shoot 9mm Major Glock 17s. A factory M&P 9 is completely "safe" shooting Major power ammo. With or without an after-market barrel.

JW

[uscbigdawg]

First, the assumption is that the guy is using minor power factor ammo (i.e. see Wakal's post on Page 1) in Production. What if they're using 45 ACP ammo? Factory ammo would easily make major and since all scoring in Production is minor, what their ammo does is immaterial.

So he gets bumped to Open. Declares major, as he now has the opportunity to do so. Makes perfect sense to me that it is do-able. Likely? Not very, but possible.

Rich

[mactiger]

Ah, but that's the rub here: the competitor didn't have to declare anything at signup, just that he was shooting Production. It doesn't matter what your actual PF is, it's all scored minor. So, you could actually be shooting major, even chrono-verified major, yet be scored minor because it's what the division rule says, not what you declared. By entering Production, IMO, you accept that your hits will be scored minor, but you don't necessarily declare minor. There is a difference.

I think this is plainly false. Just because Minor is the only power factor option for Production doesn't mean you aren't declaring it during signup.

It doesn't mean you are declaring it, either. Take a look at all the possibilities that myself and others have pointed out. Just because you are scored minor doesn't mean you are actually shooting minor. In this hypothetical situation, the claim of 9mm Major is a bit outlandish, but other calibers could easily be shooting major, yet be scored minor. The problem here is that (theoretically) there is no chronograph, and therefore no way to verify the competitor's actual power factor, therefore, his declared PF is his PF. If you look at 5.5.4 and Appendix D4, all that is required is that a competitor's ammunition make minor--major is N/A for Production because the entire division is scored minor. It doesn't say anywhere in there that you automatically declare minor when you enter, only that minor is the minimum PF allowed. There is no upper limit, therefore a competitor could be shooting major, yet be scored minor. That's what the rules say, in black and white. I didn't make it up.

Troy

[ac4wordplay]

Troy,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure that I understand your statement: "except for the holster move" (below, in bold) - could you expand on that please?

Sincerely,

ac

I'd say yes to all of the changes mentioned below, except for the holster move, because you are not changing guns or sights, and the magazines/# rounds loaded/holster type all fit the division. There are no rules that say you can't change those from stage to stage, other than the division requirements, and since the competitor has been moved to Open, I can't find a reason or a rule that prevents making those changes. You still must shoot the same gun and type of sights that you started with, otherwise you are breaking rule 5.1.7, but that rule doesn't cover magazines, type holster, etc., and it applies to a broken or unsafe gun, not one that doesn't meet the original division requirements. 5.2.5.3 would prevent you from changing your holster and magazine holder positions, I think.

Just my unofficial opinion, of course.

Troy

There is a question posted in this months Front Sight magazine in the NROI section (page 24) that asks about a competitor that gets bumped to Open Division and he wants to switch guns and use his Open gun since he is now competing in the Open Division. Reminds me of this scenario.

Yes, me too. J. Amidon's statement was (paraphrased): if bumped from Production to Open one can't switch to an optic/comped pistol.

I wonder if this would be (in general terms) not allowing an equipment switch that offers a competitive advantage.

under some of the logic..

if you signed up for production which is minor and have to shoot minor when bumped to open..why wouldn't you have to keep shooting 10rnds instead of loading your mags to capacity.

already at nationals..shooters have loaded mag up to capacity when bumped to open.

If bumped from Production to Open, can one change equipment to gain competitive advantage?

- can one load mags to full (>10 round Production limit) capacity? (According to eerw above, this is happening/allowed.)

- can one use 170mm mags?

- can one change from a Production compliant type/location holster - or mag carriers, etc. - to the (Production non-compliant) "speed" type/location?

ac

[SA Friday]

Declaring 9mm major after getting bumped... Hmmm, don't think after reading all of this there is an official answer to this problem.

What I do know is that if someone did this with the regulars I squad with, there would be a lot of steel issues for him that match.

[adweisbe]

All shooters in production are scored as if they were shooting minor power factor. How does that associate with the power factor of the ammunition that the competitor declares or shoots? If he declared major PF on his sign up sheet then I would let him score major if is bumped into open. If he declared minor PF on his sign up sheet then I would score him as minor. What stops someone from declaring major PF on his sign up sheet when shooting in production? He will still be scored minor due to the divisor rules, and I don't see know of a rule prohibiting someone from declaring that their ammo is major PF just because the are shooting production..

Edited July 17, 2009 by adweisbe

[uscbigdawg]

Troy's point is that you're not required to declare anything in Production.

Rich

[mactiger]

In my opinion, a strict read of 5.2.5.3 would prevent you from moving your holster and mag pouches from their original position. Basically it says that you cannot change the position of your equipment.

Troy

Troy,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure that I understand your statement: "except for the holster move" (below, in bold) - could you expand on that please?

Sincerely,

ac

I'd say yes to all of the changes mentioned below, except for the holster move, because you are not changing guns or sights, and the magazines/# rounds loaded/holster type all fit the division. There are no rules that say you can't change those from stage to stage, other than the division requirements, and since the competitor has been moved to Open, I can't find a reason or a rule that prevents making those changes. You still must shoot the same gun and type of sights that you started with, otherwise you are breaking rule 5.1.7, but that rule doesn't cover magazines, type holster, etc., and it applies to a broken or unsafe gun, not one that doesn't meet the original division requirements. 5.2.5.3 would prevent you from changing your holster and magazine holder positions, I think.

Just my unofficial opinion, of course.

Troy

There is a question posted in this months Front Sight magazine in the NROI section (page 24) that asks about a competitor that gets bumped to Open Division and he wants to switch guns and use his Open gun since he is now competing in the Open Division. Reminds me of this scenario.

Yes, me too. J. Amidon's statement was (paraphrased): if bumped from Production to Open one can't switch to an optic/comped pistol.

I wonder if this would be (in general terms) not allowing an equipment switch that offers a competitive advantage.

under some of the logic..

if you signed up for production which is minor and have to shoot minor when bumped to open..why wouldn't you have to keep shooting 10rnds instead of loading your mags to capacity.

already at nationals..shooters have loaded mag up to capacity when bumped to open.

If bumped from Production to Open, can one change equipment to gain competitive advantage?

- can one load mags to full (>10 round Production limit) capacity? (According to eerw above, this is happening/allowed.)

- can one use 170mm mags?

- can one change from a Production compliant type/location holster - or mag carriers, etc. - to the (Production non-compliant) "speed" type/location?

ac

[ac4wordplay]

Troy,

Thanks. If I understand your position, a competitor (who is bumped from Production to Open) may swap their Production compliant holster with a "race gun" type (NOT Production compliant) holster *IF* the replacement holster is placed in the original holster's position.

I find this a fascinating discussion.

ac

In my opinion, a strict read of 5.2.5.3 would prevent you from moving your holster and mag pouches from their original position. Basically it says that you cannot change the position of your equipment.

Troy

[Glen]

In my opinion, a strict read of 5.2.5.3 would prevent you from moving your holster and mag pouches from their original position. Basically it says that you cannot change the position of your equipment.

Troy

If this did occur, how would it be handled? Would he be

continuously watched to ensure compliance?

Also, in the other direction, consider a shooter who wants to

shoot his Limited gun in Open. He declares Open and adjusts

his equipment accordingly. The match gets underway with the

expectation that enough people will show up for Open to be

viable. This doesn't happen so Open is not available, yet he

has already shot one or more stages. What happens now?

Or will this situation never ever happen anywhere?

Glen

[JThompson]

You try that crap if I was the RM, esp shooting 9mm and it was obvious to me from the sound of it it wasn't major. I'd send your gaming ass packing.

Look, for whatever reason the guy did not comply with production rules and gets bumped, we still let him shoot for score, which I think it very lenient already, esp if cheating got him to open. I know there are many cases where you could get bumped without cheating, but the fact is you didn't comply with the rules for the class you signed up for. At that point you are lucky we even let you shoot for score. I refuse to reward a second bad act to help negate the first. You start in production, you are scored minor no matter where you end up and I don't care if you are shooting hot ammo.

10.6.1

Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsports-

manlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master

must be notified as soon as possible.

Edited July 18, 2009 by JThompson

[mactiger]

Well, first off, there is a difference between cheating and gaming.

While I agree that claiming a power factor that you know you can't achieve is cheating, I think the key, (in this hypothetical situation), is to be able to prove it. Just listening to it won't get it, unless you have some sort of super power that the rest of us mere mortals don't have.

Second, as RO's, CRO's, or RM's, we are all bound to abide by the rule book. Read the rules, enforce the rules. If you can find rules to support your actions, then point them out. I've indicated several rules that I believe support what would be my call in this case, and even postulated some very real circumstances where this situation could occur. Just saying "cheater, cheater, cheater" because someone gets bumped out of their division isn't good enough, IMO. In almost every instance I've seen, a competitor that gets bumped to Open from Production does so because he made an honest mistake and/or didn't understand the rules of Production, which can seem petty at times, unless you understand the goal of Production division. Things like a piece of grip tape in the wrong place, or a Seattle slug inserted in the grip seem innocuous to most casual competitors, but will bust the Production division rules. One of the most common things I've seen is one too many rounds in a magazine. That's not cheating in my book, it's just ignorance of the rules, or inattention when getting ready. We don't want to beat people over the head with the rule book, therefore you get bumped to Open, where all guns fit, and can continue to shoot. In matches where there is no Open, that's pretty severe, but it's not a DQ. Your call here seems pretty severe to me, given the fact that we are discussing a "what if" situation. I agree that claiming 9mm major is a big stretch, but shooting major in Production is not uncommon.

I'm sure the Instructor group will be discussing this one. I could be proven wrong, or beat about the head and shoulders until I give up, I don't know.

At this time, absent a chronograph, I don't think the rules support forcing a competitor to shoot minor if they get bumped to Open, if they claim that they are actually shooting major. Again, that's my opinion, based on my read of the rules.

Troy

You try that crap if I was the RM, esp shooting 9mm and it was obvious to me from the sound of it it wasn't major. I'd send your gaming ass packing.

Look, for whatever reason the guy did not comply with production rules and gets bumped, we still let him shoot for score, which I think it very lenient already, esp if cheating got him to open. I know there are many cases where you could get bumped without cheating, but the fact is you didn't comply with the rules for the class you signed up for. At that point you are lucky we even let you shoot for score. I refuse to reward a second bad act to help negate the first. You start in production, you are scored minor no matter where you end up and I don't care if you are shooting hot ammo.

10.6.1

Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsports-

manlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master

must be notified as soon as possible.

[Nik Habicht]

We're throwing around the "Cheating" thing pretty easily here --- I've been present or made the call when three of my friends made the move to open division.....

All of them were used to using an 11 round mag at "Make Ready." All of them managed to negotiate unloaded gun starts for years without problems, until the day they forgot to pull the extra round out of their start mag. (Every one of those stages may have involved the "unloaded gun and mag on table" as a start position.)

All of them made a mistake; all of them accepted it gracefully, all of them now only load all mags to ten.....

I'll maintain pointblank that most competitors get bumped to Open for either making a mistake or not understanding or knowing an equipment rule.....