Land mines

[Anubis]

Cooper tunnels are are at least afforded the following exceptions

10.2.5 In a Cooper Tunnel, a competitor who disturbs one or more pieces of

the overhead material will receive one procedural penalty for each

piece of overhead material which falls during the course of fire.

Overhead material which falls as a result of the competitor bumping or

striking the uprights, or as a result of muzzle gases or recoil, will not

be penalized.

Not trying to sound dumb but what's a cooper tunnel?

[George Jones]

So can someone explain to me what it the normal penalty for breaking a clay. a procedural for each broken .......

That's one of the reasons I dislike clay birds as "mines". They are not mentioned in the rulebook (as mines), therefore there is no penalty specified in the rulebook and therefore no limit to penalties (such as we have for foot faults or cooper tunnels). The evil stage designer decides what penalty is applied when one is broken. It's not uncommon to be penalized for a dropped mag breaking the clay.

I don't much care for penalties that have little to do with the shooting challenge. And I generally greatly dislike penalties which are written into the stage description.

I figure if it's not in the rulebook, it's not there for a reason.

[D.Hayden]

Not trying to sound dumb but what's a cooper tunnel?

A prop used by short ( (< 6') stage designers to penalize anyone of normal stature.. lol

[Dan Burwell]

So can someone explain to me what it the normal penalty for breaking a clay. a procedural for each broken .......

That's one of the reasons I dislike clay birds as "mines". They are not mentioned in the rulebook (as mines), therefore there is no penalty specified in the rulebook and therefore no limit to penalties (such as we have for foot faults or cooper tunnels). The evil stage designer decides what penalty is applied when one is broken. It's not uncommon to be penalized for a dropped mag breaking the clay.

I am with you on non-shooting challanges but somehow I just know the locals here would get their jollies off on this one.

[PINMAN44]

I thought it was a fun stage, I just shouldn't have stopped. Ah a newb mistake.

The clay mines present a challenge, and I really liked it.

[Spray_N_Prey]

i've shot a couple of them, and for local matches I think for the most part they are fun and something different. There was a stage in a "big" local match that had them and the whole shooting area was full of them and I think I took first on that stage. I did however drop my magazines outside the fault lines.

[Flexmoney]

The penalties would be covered under the "Stage Procedure".

Anytime you are writing in a procedure, care must be taken to write it well.

Apart from that, being in a mine field when a fire-fight breaks out...I'd think you'd want to be careful where you stepped (stay on the cleared path) or dropped your mags.

[M ammo]

I have shot a stage that had so many clays, you had a hard time finding a place to put your feet. Crazy. Silly, unreal in any situation.

and kind of unsafe.. wile you are busy looking at the ground,,, your muzzle is pointed?????

Have you been to a mine field? I have wile working with EOD in Bosnia. We didn’t go play in the mine field. For fun… Why do you think anyone would run around with a gun in a minefield?

If you know it is a mine field you don’t go in it.

Clays as landmines in a stage. One or two might be reasonable marked with white engineer tape. you can not see the real ones,,, they are not orange..

Making light of a minefield,, in a stage is bad business and people should not have it in their mine for any reason that you can tip toe around a mine field.

If your stupid enough to run around in a mine field we will call you stumpy.

How about driving a car with a blind fold!! How do we work that into a stage.

[larry cazes]

I see no real issues with clays used as mine fields provided the following things are attended to in the stage design:

1) The positions of the mines must be well marked and will not change throughout the match.

2) The penalty for breaking one should follow reasonable standards, such as -10 points per broken clay, and breaking one will not cause the shooter to zero the stage or be out of the match.

3) The clays should be fully visible and not partially hidden in weeds, high grass, etc.

I prefer the non scenario based stage designs myself such as "shoot em as you see em" but to each his own

[Flexmoney]

Maybe we could call them "situational awareness/distraction devices"...or something ?

[Alan Meek]

Maybe we could call them "situational awareness/distraction devices"...or something ?

Maybe we should just use them for what they were originally designed, after all they are called "Clay Birds/Pigeons" not "Clay Landmines"

[aztecdriver]

Maybe we could call them "situational awareness/distraction devices"...or something ?

Maybe we should just use them for what they were originally designed, after all they are called "Clay Birds/Pigeons" not "Clay Landmines"

So put them in a thrower, point the thrower at the course, and have an RO randomly sail one across the shooting area? Reminds me of a rooftop shootout in NY. There are pigeons everywhere there. Sorry, as soon as I saw "originally designed" I envisioned someone doing an American Gladiators type course where the pigeons are exploding all around the competitor as the RO is trying to ding him with it.

Not safe in reality and will never happen - just fun to imagine...

[M ammo]

I can see from your posts,,,

you get my drift,,,

I have used them as a boundary,,, on a blind stage,, in the woods,,, saying they were UXO's... and to stay away from them..

I had pic's for the stage brief,, of them as well.... and it was not 200 of them,,, it was 5 of them..

if you know it is a mine field,,,, make the other guy walk through it,,, don't waste your ammo..

if you have to call them mines,,, if someone steps on one,, have them hop of one foot the rest of the match...... ...... Just kidding..

I don't like foot fault,, safety,,, DQ traps..... Sleep at night and stop watching all of the 007 Bond movies for stage inspiration.

[PINMAN44]

I think u should throw grenades at me alan

[Alan Meek]

I think u should throw grenades at me alan

Too easy, unless they are paintball grenades

[Alan Meek]

If I was inclined to be in a mine field no second chance, but I do try to stay away from known mine fields.

What are you posting here for, then?

Troy

At least here I won't receive -10 for each broken clay

[Steve J]

Cooper tunnels are are at least afforded the following exceptions

10.2.5 In a Cooper Tunnel, a competitor who disturbs one or more pieces of

the overhead material will receive one procedural penalty for each

piece of overhead material which falls during the course of fire.

Overhead material which falls as a result of the competitor bumping or

striking the uprights, or as a result of muzzle gases or recoil, will not

be penalized.

Not trying to sound dumb but what's a cooper tunnel?

This one is ridiculously short. The slats are loose. Each one dislodged is a -10 procedural. Cooper Tunnel Thread

[PINMAN44]

lol do it Alan it would be fun

[MI_Packer]

I figure if it's not in the rulebook, it's not there for a reason.

I figure if it's not in the rulebook it's legal - just like the law . I think Gary said that in my RO class and as an xLEO that's how I read this kind of material.

edit for poor spelling and grammar.

Edited July 23, 2009 by MI_Packer

[Chris iliff]

Just did a landmine clay pigeon stage at our last local match. Broke pigeon equaled -10. I wear 14's and I swear the stage designer wears 10's. Funnest stage I've shot in a long time. Really upped the tension, what a blast. I dont think one person broke a mine and there were 27 shooters.

We also painted a perfect white dot under each pigeon. This ensured that they were always in the right location for each shooter.

When it's all said and done everything is there to distract you from the shooting. Eventually, after the successful completion of many of these types of stages during your developement, you find yourself left with just the shooting. What a wonderful place to end up. What a worthy goal to aspire.

Thanks B.E. your book inspired the second paragraph.

[mpolans]

I have shot a stage that had so many clays, you had a hard time finding a place to put your feet. Crazy. Silly, unreal in any situation.

and kind of unsafe.. wile you are busy looking at the ground,,, your muzzle is pointed?????

Have you been to a mine field? I have wile working with EOD in Bosnia. We didn’t go play in the mine field. For fun… Why do you think anyone would run around with a gun in a minefield?

If you know it is a mine field you don’t go in it.

Clays as landmines in a stage. One or two might be reasonable marked with white engineer tape. you can not see the real ones,,, they are not orange..

Making light of a minefield,, in a stage is bad business and people should not have it in their mine for any reason that you can tip toe around a mine field.

If your stupid enough to run around in a mine field we will call you stumpy.

How about driving a car with a blind fold!! How do we work that into a stage.

Let's step down off the deployment soapbox and put it away and look at things a little more rationally.

USPSA/IPSC is a game with historic ties to cops training for shooting bad guys . . . pretty much CQB. It used to be that stage descriptions included a narrative that described the scenario of how the shooter encountered the bad guys ("Timmy heard a bump in the night and saw three bad guys at the window (Box A) . . . "). That said, our game has evolved to the point where course designers try to have 23 and 32 round stages just to make the Limited and Open gun guys do a reload. Given a choice, not many rational LEOs or operators are going to choose to singlehandedly engage 12-16 bad guys.

Going back to the landmine bit, sure, it's not realistic. It's implementation in a match as described is no more realistic than singlehandedly choosing to engage over a dozen bad guys. Who cares? It's simply a creative penalty that forces a competitor to be a little more careful with his foot placement.

Bottom line, it's not real, it's just for fun. Don't get all tied up in trying to compare it to real life. If you're going to try to compare every scenario in IPSC/USPSA to real life, this game is going to leave you sorely disappointed.

Personally, while I wouldn't want to see them all the time, I don't have a problem with them. I'd think if you write them into the stage description as part of the procedure, it would make sense to make breaking one a -10 procedural.

Edited July 29, 2009 by mpolans

[The Antichrome]

also if I drop a mag and it breaks the clay target I get a penalty. Whether the mag comes off the belt or from a reload.

I'm jumping into this thread late ...but... this subject came up in my recent RO class.

I specifically asked about dropped mags breaking the clays.

Straight from Troy; no penalty.

BTW, if you use clays on a hard surface (indoors) they can be easily broken by ejected brass, no penalty.

[M ammo]

also if I drop a mag and it breaks the clay target I get a penalty. Whether the mag comes off the belt or from a reload.

I'm jumping into this thread late ...but... this subject came up in my recent RO class.

I specifically asked about dropped mags breaking the clays.

Straight from Troy; no penalty.

BTW, if you use clays on a hard surface (indoors) they can be easily broken by ejected brass, no penalty.

If you call it a Land mine, and it gets broken by ejected brass or a dropped magazine maybe an RO with big feet,, whatever hit it, it is still broken. Even if troy says so.

My foot did not break it, it was my shoe; no penalty.

What if the shooter, disagrees and says it must have been my brass it was not my foot, Prove it!

That is a big hassle for no good reason.

To funny,, maybe they should be called,, Orange doggy poo do not step in. That fits

I earned my soap box.

Jim M ammo

Edited August 25, 2009 by M ammo

[Flexmoney]

It's all in how it is written up in the stage briefing.

[mactiger]

also if I drop a mag and it breaks the clay target I get a penalty. Whether the mag comes off the belt or from a reload.

I'm jumping into this thread late ...but... this subject came up in my recent RO class.

I specifically asked about dropped mags breaking the clays.

Straight from Troy; no penalty.

BTW, if you use clays on a hard surface (indoors) they can be easily broken by ejected brass, no penalty.

If you call it a Land mine, and it gets broken by ejected brass or a dropped magazine maybe an RO with big feet,, whatever hit it, it is still broken. Even if troy says so.

My foot did not break it, it was my shoe; no penalty.

What if the shooter, disagrees and says it must have been my brass it was not my foot, Prove it!

That is a big hassle for no good reason.

To funny,, maybe they should be called,, Orange doggy poo do not step in. That fits

I earned my soap box.

Jim M ammo

Penalizing a competitor for breaking a clay with something other than his foot, or some other body part, especially the RO's foot--well, that's as wrong as sticking a bunch of clays down in the first place. That's like penalizing the competitor because the RO was standing outside the fault line while the competitor shot.

I'm all for a little extra challenge, but this whole "clay-pigeon-as-land-mine" thing goes too far sometimes. It's like a cooper tunnel--you only earn penalties for dislodging a horizontal slat if you actually dislodge it with your body, not by bumping an upright, muzzle blast, or the RO being clumsy.

Proving what broke it is easy in most cases. You can play "what if" until the cows come home--there is another RO watching for foot faults, safety problems, and most likely in a land mine stage, for the competitor's foot breaking a land mine. Just because the foot is encased in a shoe doesn't negate the penalty--the competitor broke it with a part of his body. If the RO isn't looking for that, then he's not doing his job.

Lastly, it's as Flex stated: it all depends on the written stage description, which should be written with an eye to detail in this case. Making rules up isn't part of the game. That game is called Calvin Ball.

Troy