I dislike this stage...

[Bill J]

I've been shooting USPSA for a little over a year now. Before that I did a little bit of bullseye shooting but not much, I only did it because I liked to shoot and it was the only thing going on in my area that I knew of. I'd seen USPSA and 3 gun on TV but never knew where or how to get involved.

One day surfing the internet I found a club in my area with a beginners match and decided to go. I had a 1911 with 5 8 round mags but I only had mag holders for 2 of them and a not so good holster. The match was 6 stages and on the last stage there was a Texas Star. Now to say I was worried about what would happen when I got to the star was an under statement since out of the 20 people shooting the match I was in 20th place. Well long story short I cleared the star with 6 shots, the only highlight of my day and I still came in 20th. I'll bet you can guess what my favorite steel target is to this day a little over a year later. The star didn't drive away this shooter and when I get a chance to shoot the Evil Star I welcome it.

Bill

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex hit the nail on the head “Know your customers”.

Yup, that's why I wouldn't use it at a state level match...perhaps a local.

[Flexmoney]

Here is an example of a stage that is too much:

Example_hard.htm

- 17 of 30 shooters had a hit factor below 1

- only 3 of 30 shooters had a hit factor above 2

[fred fague]

I have been shooting USPSA for four plus years and am a super senior. I have shoot the Evil Star a number of times times and enjoyed doing so. I feel the Evil Star does not discourage new shooters.

What discourages new shooters is the attitudes of some of the older shooters to the new shooters. I have shoot at major matches and talked with top shooters, Matt Burkett, Taran Butler, Phil Strader, Travis T, etc they are great examples of what makes the sport great. There are some local shooters whom are not friendly to new shooters and I feel they run new shooters off. Most new shooters don't know anyone and when other shooters ignore them they feel unwelcome.

I enjoy helping set-up and doing what ever else is needed. The sport gives me many hours of enjoyment and I meet some of the most wonderful people.

Long live Bill's Evil Star!!!

[Anubis]

Here is an example of a stage that is too much:

Example_hard.htm

- 17 of 30 shooters had a hit factor below 1

- only 3 of 30 shooters had a hit factor above 2

I'd like to see the layout for that one

[Chris iliff]

Flex hit the nail on the head “Know your customers”. For a club that has been established for a long while and have a relatively small amount of new shooters then props like these would spice things up and make it a fun challenge. But from what I have seen locally there are more and more new shooters attending matches every weekend. The vast majority of them have never even shot while moving around much less try to tackle a funky moving target like these. First impressions are everything. If a new shooter gets frustrated or sees the learning curve as a steep mountain the size of Mt Everest, then they will quit and go back to plinking on cans or whatever they were doing before.

I want to make it clear, that I myself am not intimidated by contraptions like these. Put it on a stage and I will shoot it to the best of my ability with a smile. Shooting is fun and the harder the shots are the more rewarding the performance is. We as die hard competitors will always find the fastest most efficient way of tackling the given COF of the day.

My point is that on average, new and lower class shooters will get their ass handed to them on contraptions like those and turn the experience into a frustrating one. Just look at how much time and rounds these shooters waste on simple 8 inch steel plates set out to 15 – 20 yards. Much less taking that plate and putting it on some crazy moving contraption. You can hear these shooters whining and grumbling as soon as they see the stage, way before they even start shooting.

I am not saying that every stage should be over simplified to cater to the lesser ability shooters. But if a decent result isn’t fairly easy to obtain most new shooters will quit because they don’t feel like it is a rewarding activity. Think about it, when you first start shooting USPSA matches its hard enough to not feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. Everything is hard and feels strange or uncomfortable. Why exasperate this frustration by adding funky contraption targets to the stages?

Don't think I've ever done this before, but here goes,...... I disagree with Flex. I could care less what the HF of the stage turns out to be. I know people who shoot will shoot, all others will find a way to whine themselves out of the sport one way or another. As long as every stage isn't a "Holy mother what the heck is that contraption" stage, the match will be good to go with me.

We add "funky contraption targets to the stages", because that's what we do. That's what the shooter will see eventually. Better get use to it. A good well rounded match with a "funky contraption thingy" is going to happen. I hope to see those things often at the local matches, that way when I pay some bucks for a sectional or bigger type match, I'm not caught off guard.

I think a good point is that the new guys will "key" off the other shooters. If he's with a good squad of guys, he'll see the fun and ribbing and joking and everything will be ducky. He'll understand that this is what we do, some do it better and that's OK. If he's not with a good squad, well then I hope he's reading this and realizes that his squad wasn't the norm.

And I'll reiterate..... If the new guy is in the right atmosphere and still gets pissy, hey,...... See ya later, better off with out you in my opinion. I detest the atmosphere surrounding a shooter who is perpetually pissy about something, always complaining, always whining, .......If a new guy gets upset at one stage with a "contraption" he's probably the guy no one will want to squad with in a year. All, of course, IMHO

[Flexmoney]

It's not the new guys you lose most often. They don't know any different, so they might make it back. It's the middle class shooters that are out to have a good time...that group that makes up the bulk of our shooters.

And, many don't complain and whine...at all. I do hear from them...as they quietly bring the subject up with me (thinking I might be able to share some input without putting off the stage designers too much).

I've watched it happen.

I am all for the next cool thing...as long as it works and fits in with the customer base.

[Chris iliff]

I guess my disconnect is what exactly is the "customer base". I describe our "customer base" as follows........

USPSA shooters are a diverse group of people that share a love of shooting and shooting challenges.

Maybe that's too simple?

I don't doubt that what Flex is saying is true to his experience, it's just not my experience,..........I am open to amending that with a big YET. Of course I haven't been at it as long as Flex, and I'm only a "B". I can only speak to my experiences and in no way mean any disrespect.

[Bongo Boy]

I think what we shot at a recent Front Range IDPA match was a similar star--5 steel plates on a wheel. One difference though is that, once set in motion by hitting any one of the plates, the wheel goes out of balance. I actually like it, because with no shoots in front of it, the targets appear and disappear from behind the no-shoots in both clockwise and anti-clockwise directions--and of course the rotational rate is continuously changing. So, threats ducking in and out of cover...with some imagination.

The ONLY thing that is mildly repulsive about this particular wheel & setup is the carnival feel, but I could get over it with a smile on my face. One has to continually try to find some practical 'take away' in all stages, unless of course your interest isn't in practical--which is totally fine, too. There is no stage I've seen yet that would 'frustrate' me or discourage me from the game. I bring a bag of ammo, I help set up the stages, I shoot, I take down the stages, I go home. Good day in my book.

If I were asked to come up with several stages for our local matches, and do it every month, pretty sure you'd be seeing some 'dumb' ones every now and again.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Bongo Boy

[Ron Ankeny]

fourtrax:

How many clubs do you frequent? I have noticed clubs seem to develop their own flavor as far as course design over time.

[Chris iliff]

Ron, I shoot at 6 clubs. Bend of the River conservation club in Michigan, Warsaw Rifle and Pistol club in Warsaw Indiana, Porter County Poppers up by Valporaiso Indiana, Fort Wayne Area Practical Shooters in Harlan Indiana, Atlanta Conservation Club in Atlanta Indiana, and on 5th Sundays Wildcat Creek conservation club in Lafayette Indiana. Atlanta and Bend are the same weekend, lately I've been going to Bend

I have noticed that too. Clubs tend to have a flavor after awhile, I think because the same crews do it month to month?

[dleat]

I believe the effect of this star has on a new shooter will depend on the attitude of the people in the squad. If the RO`s and the squad members the new shooter has been talking with encourage him and describe the best process for shooting the thing there won`t be a problem. If the squad members make that shooter feel as though they are being talked about or laughed at, that shooter is most likely gone for good.

I don`t think the quality of a new shooters experience depends on the stages. It depends upon the people they are shooting with. Make them feel a part of this great sport and the rest will take care of itself.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Hopefully someone will post some video of the Polish Plate Rack at the Area 1 match. 8 plates, 4 up 4 down, weight on each end of the arm and a small sliding weight on the back on the arm for initial balance. Knocking plates off causes the small weight to start moving and enough plates off on 1 end causes the large weight to fall off sending it the other way where the other weight falls off which adds to the spin rate. Watched an Open shooter do it with 8 shots and almost no movement to an Open shooters that had an initial miss shoot 15 times. Took 11 with a revo.

Similar to this?

That is too cool for words. I want to shoot that.

[bikerburgess]

I shot the evil star last summer at my second ever match. It was set very similar to the video but with 4 plates so it spun faster when you opened the door. I thought it was great fun and you could not have got me to quit after that if yoy tried, what other sport let's you shoot at stuff like that? Same with the polish plate rack, got to shoot it at area 1 this year lots of fun if you get it right still lots of fun if you get it wrong.

I also just got a guy from work to his first match we had the evile star he shot till he ran out of ammo, he was not put off he is just going to shoot limited untill he gets more mags.

The crazy stuff just makes the sport more fun

[sobrbiker883]

I've shot maybe 10-12 matches total, so I'm a new shooter. I can tell you that this shooter's motivation is to improve my skills and competency with a pistol. I have a blast everytime I shoot and the only person I'm here to beat is my last run.

That said, stars scared the bejeezus out of me until I realized its was just the same as any shooting scenario: you are presented with a situation that mixes your base skills with a pistol and a cognitive process on how to do that safely and efficiently.

I shoot competition because I enjoy the process of "solving the problem".

Stars don't skeer me, getting hyped in my head and shooting faster than I can hit is what skeers me.

[Doug H.]

I just finished setting up a shotgun stage for the Courage Classic 3 Gun Match in Bremerton, WA. This is an outlaw charity match for wounded veterans. Starts with 4 poppers with flying clays from a box, then 8 static clays on the move and finishes with the Polish Plate rack from behind a barricade. I haven't shot the Polish Plate rack yet, but I can't wait!

Doug

[DyNo!]

A target that simulates a roughly head sized target moving in an erratic and changable path, up, down, fast, slow, among a field of other shoot and non shoot targets. That's a heck of a lot more practical than most other stages. An argument can easily be made that the Texas Star is one of the most practical target we shoot at in USPSA.

That made me think of an even nastier steel mover. Someone should throw a plate on the end of a double pendulum. It's movement can't be predicted, never the same twice.

Youtube Video of Double Pendulum

Or even worse:

How about not...

[Coloradokevin]

Well, I'm here to provide that "other" perspective (the new guy)!

I'm a new USPSA competitor, having just completed my first match last week. I've been shooting for many years, and work in law enforcement, so I come to this sport with some prior knowledge of which direction the pointy end of the gun should be facing.

Personally, I think these innovative stage props are great! Honestly, this is the kind of stuff that got me interested in these matches to begin with. I can plink paper all day long, and still enjoy myself reasonably well. But, I like the idea of shooting at interesting targets... these definitely fall into that category.

Granted, I might mutter some choice words to myself as I attempt to complete those stages, but that's half the fun in my mind (I also won't promise anyone that the shots will look pretty). At the end of the day I compete to make myself better, and I think that you have to push the "comfort zone" a bit to make this happen! Admittedly, a brand new shooter might find these stages to be incredibly frustrating, but I imagine that they would be frustrated by a lot of the more typical stages as well.

As I mentioned, I'm a new USPSA shooter, so I can't make my comments based on years of experience in this sport. Nevertheless, I think it is fairly safe to say that the type of shooting we do in these matches necessitates a more advanced degree of shooting proficiency than you would typically find in a brand new shooter at the average range. In other words, I personally wouldn't enter someone in a match the very first time they picked up a handgun! You need to walk before you run (both literally and figuratively, in this case). But, it sure is fun to push myself a bit, even if my scores don't land me at the top of the "charts".

For my part of it, when I saw the video links posted in this thread I thought to myself: "I need to get one of those!"