What does a pro shooter make?

[rishii]

What happened? Well, it depends on who you ask.

Well, who do we ask ?? Intresting ..

R.O.I. happened.

I've typed, deleted, re-typed, and deleted 5 posts to this thread. It is a major frustration of mine.

R.O.I happened. Plain and simple.

Jack

Jack

what's R.O.I?

[John Dunn]

Return on Investment.

[kgunz11]

.....I know this is a growing sport.....

Sadly, this is not true.

I'm sorry Sir, I have to disagree with you. It IS a growing sport. New members every month, new products, new matches, new clubs. Maybe it's not growing as fast as you'd like for it to be, but it IS growing.

[CHA-LEE]

A little off topic but a lot of people think it was be great to turn competition shooting into their profession. As soon as you turn your “Hobby” into a job the fun factor goes WAY down. I raced semi-professionally for 20 years before quitting and getting into Practical shooting. Racing started out as a hobby then I wanted to be sponsored. I attended more races and got more sponsorship assistance as time went along. I was very grateful for all of the assistance I received from my sponsors and the experiences I was able to be apart of due to their help. But not long after I got into it seriously the racing and my results stopped being “Mine” and started becoming “Theirs”. When you are a representing a sponsor and they are footing the bills then there are no days off, no bad days, and the endless ability to suck it up and smile when you really want to scream in frustration or rage.

I got out of racing and into Practical shooting because I wanted a competitive hobby that was new and could be all mine. My results, my effort, my disappointment and my reward. One of my major goals in Practical shooting is to keep it mine and to keep it a hobby and not a job. Its my escape from the daily grind and I would hate to turn it into another job like I did with my racing.

[el pres]

R.O.I happened. Plain and simple.

[rishii]

Return on Investment.

John

thanks I was racking my brain trying to figure out if it was something gun related.

when ever this topic comes up I always remember how I 1st found this place.

I did a search for anything IPSC related and found Brian's store and his hate page

http://brianenos.com/pages/hate.html#tophate

and the last paragraph really opened my eyes to what being sponsored was all about.

I’ll end up with the topic of fully sponsored shooters. I am familiar with this because I was fully sponsored for 10 years. When I received my first big offer I thought it was going to be the greatest thing that ever happened to me. I could accomplish things I never thought possible when I had to work for a living. Before I accepted their offer I spent weeks thinking about whether it was the best thing for the sport. I had some thoughts on this subject because the military was already paying shooters to compete full time. When a sport hits this level it eventually makes it difficult for the non-sponsored competitor to win. I was greedy and I took their money. Not long after that a shooter approached me and thanked me for writing Practical Shooting, and then, with a twinkle in his eye said, "I’m happy for you that you are being paid to do what you love, but I couldn’t do it. I love shooting too much." He knew. Sponsorship is not what you think. As soon as you are being paid to do something you love, everything changes. If you haven’t been there I know it’s hard to believe. But trust me, it’s true. I clearly remember the determination and drive I used to have. I haven’t felt that in a long time. Not since I have been paid to shoot.

[Carmoney]

.....I know this is a growing sport.....

Sadly, this is not true.

I'm sorry Sir, I have to disagree with you. It IS a growing sport. New members every month, new products, new matches, new clubs. Maybe it's not growing as fast as you'd like for it to be, but it IS growing.

You apparently missed my point, bud. This thread is about professional shooters, and I described what appears to have been the "golden age" of professional shooting that came--and went--a number of years ago. You will certainly will have to agree there is nothing resembling that in the world of competitive handgunning today.

Today we have Rob (Springfield/Safariland), Todd (Para), Dave (Glock), and Jerry (S&W) as the only players that have truly managed to eke out a living at this game on an extended, long-term basis. Maybe Max's deal will work out and in a few years he can join that list, but I really think it's too soon to know--and let's face it, SIG doesn't really have products that are much good for what we do in USPSA, so Max could run into those R.O.I. issues there, too.

[zenshootist]

I should have taken up golf!!!

[larry cazes]

.....

Edited June 30, 2009 by larry cazes

[shred]

McBane has some comments on this topic from time to time Basically back-in-the-day, IPSC was "IT". IPSC shooters were the leading edge of everything product-wise and where everybody wanted to be.

Now, not so much. Black nylon webbing seems to sell better.

[Lanzo]

.....I know this is a growing sport.....

Sadly, this is not true.

I'm sorry Sir, I have to disagree with you. It IS a growing sport. New members every month, new products, new matches, new clubs. Maybe it's not growing as fast as you'd like for it to be, but it IS growing.

You apparently missed my point, bud. This thread is about professional shooters, and I described what appears to have been the "golden age" of professional shooting that came--and went--a number of years ago. You will certainly will have to agree there is nothing resembling that in the world of competitive handgunning today.

Today we have Rob (Springfield/Safariland), Todd (Para), Dave (Glock), and Jerry (S&W) as the only players that have truly managed to eke out a living at this game on an extended, long-term basis. Maybe Max's deal will work out and in a few years he can join that list, but I really think it's too soon to know--and let's face it, SIG doesn't really have products that are much good for what we do in USPSA, so Max could run into those R.O.I. issues there, too.

Negative.

I've seen an open gun from SIG that Max would shoot in action. In fact, i've watched HIM shoot it in person in a unpressured environment practicing. SMOKIN'. Both parties (there was another top-ranked shooter) commented favorably on the gun I've seen video of Max shooting a standard SIG that he had never touched before where he was smokin'. I don't think he's going to have any issues....and to be frank...i'm pretty sure he could probably pick up most any gun and eat lunches with it. When your at the level these boys play at no gun is like what comes from the company. EVERYTHING is hand picked, made this or that way for a reason. To say that one company isn't good for what we do is kind of crazy when you relate it to the level where a guy has the ability and means to do whatever he wants to it.

--Lanzo

Edited June 30, 2009 by Lanzo

[Carmoney]

Basically back-in-the-day, IPSC was "IT". IPSC shooters were the leading edge of everything product-wise and where everybody wanted to be.

But think about how much bigger all the action shooting sports were back then, not just IPSC.....the Second Chance bowling pin match attracted 500 shooters and they gave away cars and motorcycles and trips to Vegas and tables loaded with prize guns, the Masters gave away tons of cash, John Bianchi awarded Rolex watches and $20,000 checks while wearing a tuxedo, Chevy (finally, a mainstream major sponsor!) sponsored the Sportsman's Team Challenge, Khar and Taurus sponsored the NAPSA Nationals, etc., etc., etc., etc., and at these matches everywhere you looked there were pro shooters with Springfield or S&W in their colorful jumpsuits.

We have nothing like that now. It looked like we were verging on mainstream exposure and appeal, and the sponsorship and investment that follow. But then it sorta fell apart.

[Carmoney]

Negative.

I've seen an open gun from SIG that Max would shoot in action. In fact, i've watched HIM shoot it in person in a unpressured environment practicing. SMOKIN'. Both parties (there was another top-ranked shooter) commented favorably on the gun I've seen video of Max shooting a standard SIG that he had never touched before where he was smokin'. I don't think he's going to have any issues....and to be frank...i'm pretty sure he could probably pick up most any gun and eat lunches with it. When your at the level these boys play at no gun is like what comes from the company. EVERYTHING is hand picked, made this or that way for a reason. To say that one company isn't good for what we do is kind of crazy when you relate it to the level where a guy has the ability and means to do whatever he wants to it.

--Lanzo

Lanzo, I would like to be wrong on this, believe me. I think it's great that SIG is sponsoring Max, and I hope it works out really well for him. He's a very talented shooter and seems like a really good guy, too, from what I've seen of him. If that happens, it's because Max helped SIG develop a meaningful (ergo, profitable) competition product line.

But we don't have anything like that now from SIG, and I think it's pretty obvious the only reason he's shooting a SIG is that he's being paid to do so. Nothing wrong about that, I'm just saying we're a long way from knowing if anything long-term will grow out of the effort. But I hope it does--it would be good for the game!

[Jaxshooter]

Please note Carmoney is a professional shooter and part time barrister.( That is a nicer word than attorney.)

[shred]

Basically back-in-the-day, IPSC was "IT". IPSC shooters were the leading edge of everything product-wise and where everybody wanted to be.

But think about how much bigger all the action shooting sports were back then, not just IPSC.....the Second Chance bowling pin match attracted 500 shooters and they gave away cars and motorcycles and trips to Vegas and tables loaded with prize guns, the Masters gave away tons of cash, John Bianchi awarded Rolex watches and $20,000 checks while wearing a tuxedo, Chevy (finally, a mainstream major sponsor!) sponsored the Sportsman's Team Challenge, Khar and Taurus sponsored the NAPSA Nationals, etc., etc., etc., etc., and at these matches everywhere you looked there were pro shooters with Springfield or S&W in their colorful jumpsuits.

We have nothing like that now. It looked like we were verging on mainstream exposure and appeal, and the sponsorship and investment that follow. But then it sorta fell apart.

Well, that's sorta my point.. at one time all the wannabes wanted to be IPSC, just like they all wanted to be Quick Draw in the 50's. Now they all want to be Combat Operators (I guess competition is too hard on the ego). As Jack says... the ROI went away, and with guns losing any semblance of "PC", the mainstream sponsors and media quickly moved on to Pro Surfing or Stunt Rollerblading or whatever as well. Heck, there's probably a Stunt Rollerblading forum somewhere with posts like "why didn't we make it big after the ESPN SRB Nationals in 1992?". I know there are Windsurfing forums full of questions like that.

[Lanzo]

Negative.

I've seen an open gun from SIG that Max would shoot in action. In fact, i've watched HIM shoot it in person in a unpressured environment practicing. SMOKIN'. Both parties (there was another top-ranked shooter) commented favorably on the gun I've seen video of Max shooting a standard SIG that he had never touched before where he was smokin'. I don't think he's going to have any issues....and to be frank...i'm pretty sure he could probably pick up most any gun and eat lunches with it. When your at the level these boys play at no gun is like what comes from the company. EVERYTHING is hand picked, made this or that way for a reason. To say that one company isn't good for what we do is kind of crazy when you relate it to the level where a guy has the ability and means to do whatever he wants to it.

--Lanzo

Lanzo, I would like to be wrong on this, believe me. I think it's great that SIG is sponsoring Max, and I hope it works out really well for him. He's a very talented shooter and seems like a really good guy, too, from what I've seen of him. If that happens, it's because Max helped SIG develop a meaningful (ergo, profitable) competition product line.

But we don't have anything like that now from SIG, and I think it's pretty obvious the only reason he's shooting a SIG is that he's being paid to do so. Nothing wrong about that, I'm just saying we're a long way from knowing if anything long-term will grow out of the effort. But I hope it does--it would be good for the game!

True words. I'm sure he'll do good things for SIG. God knows he can't hurt the company any

Please note Carmoney is a professional shooter and part time barrister.( That is a nicer word than attorney.)

I'm not trying to take anything anyway from Carmoney and no disrespect was intended. I just know Max could pick up pretty much anything and eat people's lunches. He's a great guy and extremely talented with a gun in his hands. I was just trying to point out that just because they don't make race guns doesn't mean they can't offer a compareable weapon to what is out there....especially when you have a guy like Max that has the ability and means to do so much to the gun. All guns have the same main parts. It's what you do with them that makes 'em run!

[pjb45]

Only a very few of the top GMs make real money.

Dave is actually employed at Glock. Some GMs are actual employees, some are sponsored with varying degrees of support from their main sponsor. Max made a significant income outside his former day job by shooting-Steel Challenge for example. Being a National and World champion helps. TGO has SA. Todd, Doug, Julie, Jerry all have their arrangements

Some top shooters make more money at Bianchi and other shooting events. Our sport gives away prizes (generally) not cash.

Many top GMs rely on sponsors to augment their income. This can take on many forms from product to financial support. Most importantly, you can not always count on sponsors to continue to fund at the same level every year. They are a business that is affected by the economy, etc.

The cash cow, so to speak for the GMs, is training.

[Carmoney]

Please note Carmoney is a professional shooter and part time barrister.( That is a nicer word than attorney.)

Puh-leeze, Jax!!

Although I do respect those who rise to the challenge of becoming a professional shooter, I don't think you could pay me enough to shoot for a living. I hate to practice.

[wkj4567]

I don't know what they make but I'm taking a class with one and I hope it MAKES me a better shooter!

[jkrispies]

Maybe it's a bit of a drift, but I've been reading through this thread, and there's a part of me that is more than okay with the fact that our top guys don't have multi-million dollar contracts.

I think it's totally amazing that I--as in, "me," a total nobody--can go to a new club, tell them that I'm a first-timer on the premises, and the match director will wave down a GM, who happens to be the owner of a gun parts manufacturing company that probably everybody in this forum would recognize, and without batting an eyelash he welcomes me and walks me through the day like an old buddy, offering primo advice on how I can improve my game. This is exactly what happened with me last weekend; in my same squad was one of the best female shooters around, and she treated me just the same, inviting me several times to try out her regular club's matches next weekend. Furthermore, this is not unusual. At another local club on my first visit to that facility, the MD who is a major name that every person on this forum would recognize told me where he lived and invited me to stop by whenever I liked; we even discussed carpooling to the matches.

Do you think I'd be treated like this if I walked into the Staple's center and asked if I could shoot some hoops? Would Kobe come out, give me a tour of the premises, and then help me to improve my free throw?

This is a humbled and open community, and I really like that. Now, I'm not wishing to "keep anybody down" from succeeding-- if one of us can score a million dollar sponsorship, then good for him, but is it really a bad thing that it's not happening? If so-and-so has a contract that's "only" for $80,000 a year, plus prize money, plus training deals on the side... um... who is complaining?

Personally, I don't want to be a professional competitive shooter. I want to keep this for me. Now, would it be great if I had a semi-sponsorship that asked for a little salesmanship on my part in trade for help with my expenses so I can afford to practice and regularly attend Level I matches, plus a Level III here and there. Of course-- sign me up. If the sponsor is smart, he's hiring me more for my ability to bring him clients than my ability to come in 1st rather than 2nd or 3rd.

This is a sport by us, for us-- rather than by corporate executives, for corporate profits. Let's not be ashamed to keep it that way.

[CHA-LEE]

jkrispies> Great Post!!!!

[bbbean]

Do you think I'd be treated like this if I walked into the Staple's center and asked if I could shoot some hoops? Would Kobe come out, give me a tour of the premises, and then help me to improve my free throw?

Good point!

[XD Niner]

jkrispies> Great Post!!!!

+1. That's one of the things I really like about this sport. We are a community with similar interests and even though our talent, commitment and skill sets may not be GM level we are all able to compete and enjoy the sport together.

[kevin c]

+1000

The big boys in the big money sports are well removed from their fans. I doubt that I could get within 50 feet of some NBA star before being hammered by his security, but I sat just a couple of seats behind TGO and Kippi on the flight out to Tulsa last year, commiserated with Dave Sevigny on getting edged out of the championship, got a big grin, hello and a bone crushing handshake from Travis Tomasie, etc, etc. I've had Matt Burkett, Frank Garcia, Todd Jarrett and Bennie Cooley critique my (lack of) technique personally (granted I paid them to do it, but could you get Tiger to help you with your chip shot?).

Any one of us has had the same experiences.

Edited July 2, 2009 by kevin c

[SA Friday]

Maybe it's a bit of a drift, but I've been reading through this thread, and there's a part of me that is more than okay with the fact that our top guys don't have multi-million dollar contracts.

I think it's totally amazing that I--as in, "me," a total nobody--can go to a new club, tell them that I'm a first-timer on the premises, and the match director will wave down a GM, who happens to be the owner of a gun parts manufacturing company that probably everybody in this forum would recognize, and without batting an eyelash he welcomes me and walks me through the day like an old buddy, offering primo advice on how I can improve my game. This is exactly what happened with me last weekend; in my same squad was one of the best female shooters around, and she treated me just the same, inviting me several times to try out her regular club's matches next weekend. Furthermore, this is not unusual. At another local club on my first visit to that facility, the MD who is a major name that every person on this forum would recognize told me where he lived and invited me to stop by whenever I liked; we even discussed carpooling to the matches.

Do you think I'd be treated like this if I walked into the Staple's center and asked if I could shoot some hoops? Would Kobe come out, give me a tour of the premises, and then help me to improve my free throw?

This is a humbled and open community, and I really like that. Now, I'm not wishing to "keep anybody down" from succeeding-- if one of us can score a million dollar sponsorship, then good for him, but is it really a bad thing that it's not happening? If so-and-so has a contract that's "only" for $80,000 a year, plus prize money, plus training deals on the side... um... who is complaining?

Personally, I don't want to be a professional competitive shooter. I want to keep this for me. Now, would it be great if I had a semi-sponsorship that asked for a little salesmanship on my part in trade for help with my expenses so I can afford to practice and regularly attend Level I matches, plus a Level III here and there. Of course-- sign me up. If the sponsor is smart, he's hiring me more for my ability to bring him clients than my ability to come in 1st rather than 2nd or 3rd.

This is a sport by us, for us-- rather than by corporate executives, for corporate profits. Let's not be ashamed to keep it that way.

Best post I've read in a long time.