Matt Griffin Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I was practicing a bit today, and I can't seem to bring my splits down very far. Jerry says to "keep the trigger moving" and that certainly applies on close targets where a fine sight picture isn't required, the trigger speed is your limiting factor. But on longer targets, do you keep the trigger moving and stop or slow down to wait for the sights, or are your sights always there ahead of your trigger, or do you wait for the sights, and THEN start the pull? I'm having trouble slowing down if I'm keeping the trigger moving, is the upshot. I was working on a plate rack at 20 yards, and my reliable split was .5. If I kept the trigger moving I could go down to .34, but misses started showing up quickly. It seems that if I keep the trigger moving, I can't stop it if the sight picture isn't acceptable. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I'm very interested to read the responses as well. I haven't had luck starting the trigger pull before my sights are aligned, this results in bad hits for me at anything over 15 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franklin D Wolverton Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Yes, keep the trigger moving... You may be subconsciously jerking the trigger a little bit on the faster splits. You don't need to keep it moving at the same speed. If you're coming up on longer range or smaller targets... keep her moving, but slow down the movement a little. This will help with getting the sights on target as the trigger is pulled. I'd almost bet that on your misses, the shots where flying just wide of the target in the opposite direction you were moving (i.e shots too early). If your shooting stationary steel on the move... using the plate rack as an example, you'd want the shot to break just as you are coming on target, that way if you DO miss, you can send a second shot down without stopping your lateral movement. A lot of people get hung up on shooting the steel dead center... all you gotta do is hit it. It's actually the same on paper targets on the move... if you shoot just as your coming into the A zone, your 2nd shot can be sent in while still moving, and still in the A zone. Yes.. they will be on opposite sides of the A zone... but we don't get extra points for tight groups. In a nutshell... Trigger and gun keep moving. Start squeezing the trigger as you are coming on target instead of "pulling" the trigger when you are on target. Hope that makes sense. Of course... saying and doing are two different things. I have the same problem you're talking about... but I'm working on it Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Yes, keep the trigger moving...You may be subconsciously jerking the trigger a little bit on the faster splits. In a nutshell... Trigger and gun keep moving. Start squeezing the trigger as you are coming on target instead of "pulling" the trigger when you are on target. Hope that makes sense. Of course... saying and doing are two different things. I have the same problem you're talking about... but I'm working on it Frank I agree. I'm not a "greater light". I practice on Newbold targets, 4" round at 10 or 12 yards. My splits with all hits run .40, total time 5 targets from low ready, mid to high 2.2's currently. Practice for pins or steel. The biggest problem I have is breaking the shot with the sights or dot on target vs starting the pull after alignment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Matt, You were 6th at last years Nationals, and 2nd at this years A-6 and you're asking about trigger technique ? You are at the stage of what works for you might not work for everyone or anyone else. Keep working on both techniques, they are both tools in the tool box. Use them when they are needed. But what do I know ? (see tag line) HOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I close my eyes and jerk really fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 Matt,You were 6th at last years Nationals, and 2nd at this years A-6 and you're asking about trigger technique ? You are at the stage of what works for you might not work for everyone or anyone else. Keep working on both techniques, they are both tools in the tool box. Use them when they are needed. But what do I know ? (see tag line) HOP Ahem. 5th. ;-) But I have no illusions that I know everything, or have found my personal ultimate technique. I'm tired of waiting on the gun/trigger to return and want to figure out how to go Jerry-style. I have an awful suspicion that shooting 250k rounds might be part of the answer, but I'm still searching. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I close my eyes and jerk really fast. Um.... ....never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted May 27, 2009 Author Share Posted May 27, 2009 So I took a bunch of duck tape and ACE athletic tape and filled in the finger grooves on my hogue grip, as well as making a straight line up the back of the grip, effectively softening the beavernub. (Flex, I'll get you for putting that by my name.) After a bit more experimentation I kept wrapping the bottom until my pinky was forward of my ring finger, and I seem to like the grip a lot more now. It lets me crank the bottom fingers down while leaving the trigger finger loose. I'm throwing a lot of .18 splits in dryfire, with occasional dips below. I'll have to take it to the range to check whether it works, but I like how the sight is moving right now. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 So I took a bunch of duck tape and ACE athletic tape and filled in the finger grooves on my hogue grip Check out this stuff for wrapping grips. I used to have some I used on Glocks and it felt tacky when it was sweaty with a bit of give to it. I've been looking for a local source before I break down and order some to try myself. By the way, Albert told me he spoke to you in the shop today. Hopefully he didn't really say all the crap he told me he said to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasond Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) Check out this stuff for wrapping grips. I used to have some I used on Glocks and it felt tacky when it was sweaty with a bit of give to it. I've been looking for a local source before I break down and order some to try myself. The pink camo, right? Edited May 27, 2009 by jasond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted May 27, 2009 Author Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) So I took a bunch of duck tape and ACE athletic tape and filled in the finger grooves on my hogue grip Check out this stuff for wrapping grips. I used to have some I used on Glocks and it felt tacky when it was sweaty with a bit of give to it. I've been looking for a local source before I break down and order some to try myself. By the way, Albert told me he spoke to you in the shop today. Hopefully he didn't really say all the crap he told me he said to you... Steve? Dat you? Honestly I know your name more from work than shooting, you need to get to Silver Creek more often. I think you know a bunch of folks at MaximumASP, where I work. Albert's a great guy, and I have to give him the greatest honors, he's the one that clued me in on shooting sports. KPDL was my first match, and I'm so, so pissed I didn't know about this when I was younger. But if you're wanting to shoot revo at the IN sectional, come on over. I'm going to shoot Friday and work Sat/Sun, unfortunately an unplanned series of root canals has drained my flying money for the IRC and ProAm. Chat me up wherever I wind up. H. Edited May 27, 2009 by Houngan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Yeah, I'm shooting the Indiana Section, but on Saturday due to work constraints. Hopefully getting to shoot on squad 15 with hopalong and nashvillebill so I can leech some strategies from other wheelgunners... I'm sure we'll shoot together soon though, I'm a member out at Silver Creek now and as soon as I get on my new shift I'll have weekends off. We definitely know a lot of the same people though if you're working there these days, the IT world around here is a small world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 So I took a bunch of duck tape and ACE athletic tape and filled in the finger grooves on my hogue grip Check out this stuff for wrapping grips. I used to have some I used on Glocks and it felt tacky when it was sweaty with a bit of give to it. I've been looking for a local source before I break down and order some to try myself. By the way, Albert told me he spoke to you in the shop today. Hopefully he didn't really say all the crap he told me he said to you... Try Tractor Supply or Orschelns or some other business that has, or specializes in, Tack for horses. That stuff looks a lot like the wrap they use on a horses legs to stop bruising, and look good, in various competitions and shows. I think I have some even, may try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Revisiting: With quite a bit of practice, my splits are more in the .16-.17 range in dryfire with good stability, but I'm still stuck at .20 in live fire. So a question: When Jerry says that he uses recoil during the pull, i.e. that it's harder for him to go fast in dryfire, to which motion is he referring? Is he letting recoil help with getting the trigger through rebound? H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRDB Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Just my 2 cents, Dry fire is good for many things, reloading, draw, trans but not splits, you can run the gun way faster than you can shoot A's/zero's (most people). To me, keeping the trigger moving is more about transitions, I return the trigger at the same rate that I press, if targets are close I press and return fast as I enter the A/-0 and before I leave that zone (trans on target), if the targets are out there I just slow down my trans (target to target) a little to permit me to do the same, this has become second nature and I no longer think of splits or keeping the trigger moving it just is what it is. Transitions control my split times both on target and from target to target Regards, DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 I appreciate the point, but I do find myself waiting for the gun (my finger) occasionally. While it may not be a common problem, it's the one with which I am coping. That and reloads, of course. Where does he get that last .20? H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRDB Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 That last .20 ? (What is the question I missed something) Reloads run (for me) 1.8 to 2.25 (easy to run up from time to time) Jerry's match reload times are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Shooter Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Splits don't mean all that much in the grand scheme of things.....If I can split quicker than you ( and I can ) you will find those .02/.03 cesonds on transitions and moving......I will steal them back on reloads, and then it will all come down to accuracy...... which I should slip ahead....Now that I have finished talking trash, I shall sit back and wait for you to kick my ass at the next match..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Where JM eats everyones lunch is his Splits on Partial Targets. He consistently runs close to half the time on a partial than anyone else in the squads at the Nationals, the ones I've been on. His open target splits seemed to usually be only a few .0? faster, like .18 to a .21. But his partial target splits were in the .? difference and the harder the shot the bigger the difference. But every once in a while he'd rip off a run that seemed to have sub .15 splits and transitions and well the times would make an M Auto competitor happy. I also think once you get much under .2 with a Revo, it starts coming down to either intent or natural fast twitch muscles. The intent is if you go into the split with the intent to just yank 2 fast ones, you can start cutting it down. But it can also screw up your timing and accuracty a whole lot if you do it a great deal. Some just have faster twitching muscle fiber and once they learn to harness it, well can you say high GM. My experience has also been that I'm only .02 to .04 slower with a Revo than an Auto with my splits. I've done a .11 Auto and a .16 Revo, but only once or twice in practice. Average seems about .15 Auto and .19 Revo up close in practice. I have no idea how fast in a match and I don't really care. If I can just be 1 point better and a twitch faster, I'm happy. What I do want is to see my sights and call my shots in the fastest time I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 I agree that splits aren't that important at the speeds we're discussing, but I'm curious how he does it. There may well be a technique that allows him to get those extremely fast difficult shots as well, some things translate to all shooting. Reloads, I can't get past 1.8 or so in dryfire from a belt, or 1.6 from the table. Watching Jerry's video, it may be that he's making up .1 or so on how fast he presents the gun after the reload, I feel that I may be sluggish there. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nashvillebill Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 That's the thing I have noticed about Jerry, the gun is up and fired instantly. Same thing when he shoots a rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 I've also noticed on some videos of JM's fast reloads, he actually seems to fire well short of full extension. Kind of looked like a gun length past the 2 hand clasp. But he still gets his hits, so it works. FWIW, rumor has it he had an old "N" frame welded to the dash of his truck and would drive down the road snapping away. Maybe a precursor to the "Texting" while driving craze? I also think it's starting to take its toll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Splits don't mean all that much in the grand scheme of things.....If I can split quicker than you ( and I can ) you will find those .02/.03 cesonds on transitions and moving......I will steal them back on reloads, and then it will all come down to accuracy...... which I should slip ahead....Now that I have finished talking trash, I shall sit back and wait for you to kick my ass at the next match..... WOW, thats humble!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted August 7, 2009 Author Share Posted August 7, 2009 Well of course he can split faster than me, he shoots that powderpuff ICORE stuff. If I was shooting ammo that I had to worry about ambulatory insects deflecting, I might get freaky splits, too. In all seriousness, I did find the other .20 tonight. It was in the speed of completing the reload, from the clip going in to the movement towards the target. That, and practicing my cylinder release. Doing a raw-speed drill with no aiming, just click-reload-click, and also while sitting at my computer watching TV so the reload came from my keyboard tray rather than my belt, I had one 1.36 reload, and can consistently do 1.6 now. I know this may have nothing to do with real shooting, but it's a solid .25 faster than my previous dryfire efforts, so I should get some benefit with practice. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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