werewolf45auto Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I'm new to shooitng Open and after practicing today I noticed that all my cases are buldged were the ramp is on my barrel. I got the load from the pre. owner and its seems to be a well used load on these fourms. So is the buldge normal and I just have to get use to the shorter case life or Should I work up a differant load ? I do really like the way this load shoots and functions so far. Recomended 8.0 grs N350 (useing 7.8 grs) MG 124gr JHP WSR primers Starline 38 SC brass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 it depends on how much bulge you're talking about. a little is normal. presumably your open gun has a ramped barrel, correct? this will limit bulging compared to a non-ramped design. check out the figures on http://www.38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html at the bottom of the page. is the bulging you have that serious? i hope not. lesser bulging can be "corrected" via the sizing procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolf45auto Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 it depends on how much bulge you're talking about. a little is normal. presumably your open gun has a ramped barrel, correct? this will limit bulging compared to a non-ramped design.check out the figures on http://www.38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html at the bottom of the page. is the bulging you have that serious? i hope not. lesser bulging can be "corrected" via the sizing procedure. This Is my case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 This Is my case I think every Open gun I've seen in 38SC shows some amount of buldge like that...I wouldn't worry about it. Normal resizing should take care of it and case life doesn't seem to be shortened because of it. The primer pockets on Super/SC will usually get loose before you start splitting cases. When you can't feel the primer seat, they're getting loose and they should go to the scrap pile after that firing. I have noticed that primer pockets that feel a touch loose with Win primers are good for another couple of uses with Fed primers. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolf45auto Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 Thanks G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 first, thanks for the photo. it helps the diagnosis. though the photo is a bit small so i hope that you'll understand that there are limits to how definitively we can judge it one way or another. that said, i see why you're concerned about the bulge. it's not trivial and it does extend farther forward that most i've seen. it does seem to be one-sided, but this is typical - in my experience. i checked some of my high pressure 38 SC brass and some 38 SC i picked up at the last match i attended that was fired in other people's open guns. your brass does appear to be a bit more expanded than any of these. part of my stash included excess pressure 38 SC cases fired in one of my 9X23 chambers. a couple of them approached what i see in your pic, but most don't. my stash, however, included some once fired stuff, and maybe as they get used more they might bulge more like what your photo is like. you load data appears to be within the usual range for that powder/bullet weight so i see no rush to change it, though i don't use N350 for my major loads so i don't have hands-on experience with it. based on all of this i suspect (can't say with complete confidence) that your chamber has somewhat generous proportions - this is an internet diagnosis so i could easily be off base. but i don't think there is a reason to panic at this point. that's good. check your cases after reloading (using conventional dies, not a roll sizer), and as they get loaded more over time and watch for a ring just forward of the extractor groove. the ring is usually a sign that the cases have been expanded too much and sized incompletely in that region and that their useful safe life is at an end. the ring suggests weakness and at that point they should be discarded. the ring notes the position of the end of travel for the sizer die (conventional size die, not a roll sizer). good luck and keep blasting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 What barrel is in the gun. CYa, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I have seen this occassionally with brass that I pick up. Typically what I do when I size my brass is put it through a dillon sizing die or any factory spec sizing die, then the next station I will run it through a Lee undersize die. If I ran a bulged piece of brass through a lee undersize die first, it will sheer off some brass at the base of the case. But I believe the bulge is due to taking too much material off at the entrance of the chamber, some smiths feel they need to do this to make the gun more reliable in feeding, which it may do, but your brass takes more of a beating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 check your cases after reloading (using conventional dies, not a roll sizer), and as they get loaded more over time and watch for a ring just forward of the extractor groove. the ring is usually a sign that the cases have been expanded too much and sized incompletely in that region and that their useful safe life is at an end. the ring suggests weakness and at that point they should be discarded. the ring notes the position of the end of travel for the sizer die (conventional size die, not a roll sizer). I obviously have no idea where you heard this concept, but in my experience of loading Super (about 18 years now) it's simply not true. The "ring" does show where the resizing die stops, but it doesn't have anything to do with case wall thickness, how strong it is or whether it's still safe to use. I have Starline cases that I've bought not long ago, shot exactly once, with a mild Major load (N105) and then reloaded using a Dillon resizing die. Those cases have that "ring". They are in no way near the end of their safe life. In fact, I have yet to have a case blowout with my practice brass that has been loaded many times (most at least 12-15) times. They all have the "ring". Not long ago I sectioned one of the oldest cases and the wall thickness in the web, where the "ring" is was still fine. In fact, measuring above the ring (where the sizing die works) and below the "ring" shows a difference of only fifteen thousandths. I'll find the pic I took of the sectioned case and post it...looking at it, it's very clear that the ring just happens to coincide with where the case wall thickness increases significantly as it starts to become the web. I'm sure there has to be some amount of work hardening to the brass anywhere that the sizing die contacts it, but that almost always shows up far earlier in split case mouths since they get worked far more than the rest of the case. It'll be a while before I can find the pic, but I'll get to it today. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 That bulge on your case is normal for a 38 supercomp. Though you'll find some with less bulge from guns that doesn't require hotter loads. I use 10.1gr of 3N38 with the same bullet and my casings bulge more than that. Even though a regular sizing die works, I like how the U-die takes the bulge out. I reuse my brass until I lose them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolf45auto Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 This is once fired brass and it fits in my case gauge fine after sizing with my dillon size/decap die. I will add that in the picture the buldge seems to go higher on the case than I can tell with my eye or finger. I have a few more pictures I can post and I did shrink this picture as my Nikon take high rez photos and didn't want to trouble anyone or the site. I did get 200 rounds from the owner and I picked through those fired cases this morning and they have the same buldge with many more fireings than my one shot cases. Hope any of this helps. I will have to get back to you guys on the Barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I do have some pickup 38TJ brass that has the base expanded so far it will not go in a case gauge. No telling how it got that way..but it does go through the Dillon dies..but fails case gauge. This situation may account for the ring posted by paper killer...and I suspect it is unrelated to the ring from normal sizing. I would guess the brass was subjected to several over pressure firings to malform it so much. Most major guns will bulge the case to some degree...it is a function of how loose the gun was chambered and ramped into the chamber. And excessive headspace can allow the case to back out leaving more of it unsupported...among other things I think by the photo..(imperfect example) you look to be ok Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolf45auto Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 The barrel is a Briley/ramped. Also I just reloaded a few and they all chanber but still have a slight buldge at the bottom of the case. But from the sounds of it I should just keep shooting it and time will tell what case life will be (my big concern is safety) and my need to explore other loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Here's a pic of a very old, many, many times reloaded 38SC case. You can see the "ring" on the top and that's where the case is already getting quite thick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the posting the pic, G-ManBart. nice pic by the way. I wondered if we were talking about the same thing. You're right, that ring is just fine, and normal, probably for most anything we load. it is not a sign of worn out or dangerous brass, or at least i hope not since all mine look like that too. I was thinking of another type of ring that shows up from excessively bulged cases that are imperfectly resizing with a conventional die (that does not go all the way to the extractor groove, or at least farther than usual), and probably additional firing and resizing. hopefully my pic (if i can attach it) will illustrate what i meant by the "ring" that i was talking about. in this instance metal actually protrudes from the side of the casing. and i apologize for my description not being more explicit and for any confusion that i might have caused. anyway, the "bad" ring is was i was referring to, and in my opinion once a case looks like this it's time to toss it out. and i forgot to mention, i really liked the picture of the sectioned case since i've wondered what it looks like inside the case when that ring is present. i did not know if the "okay" ring meant that there was a change in case thickness or indicated something else in the brass' strength that i should be concerned about. it's reassuring to know, based on your picture G-ManBart, that there does not appear to be anything to worry about with that type of ring. Many thanks. this link is proving to be very educational for me. i guess that sometimes minor confusions can lead to a wealth of information. thanks again. Edited May 25, 2009 by superdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Note: moved thread to the 38 reloading forum. - Admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the posting the pic, G-ManBart. nice pic by the way. I wondered if we were talking about the same thing. You're right, that ring is just fine, and normal, probably for most anything we load. it is not a sign of worn out or dangerous brass, or at least i hope not since all mine look like that too. I was thinking of another type of ring that shows up from excessively bulged cases that are imperfectly resizing with a conventional die (that does not go all the way to the extractor groove, or at least farther than usual), and probably additional firing and resizing. hopefully my pic (if i can attach it) will illustrate what i meant by the "ring" that i was talking about. in this instance metal actually protrudes from the side of the casing. and i apologize for my description not being more explicit and for any confusion that i might have caused. anyway, the "bad" ring is was i was referring to, and in my opinion once a case looks like this it's time to toss it out. and i forgot to mention, i really liked the picture of the sectioned case since i've wondered what it looks like inside the case when that ring is present. i did not know if the "okay" ring meant that there was a change in case thickness or indicated something else in the brass' strength that i should be concerned about. it's reassuring to know, based on your picture G-ManBart, that there does not appear to be anything to worry about with that type of ring. Many thanks. this link is proving to be very educational for me. i guess that sometimes minor confusions can lead to a wealth of information. thanks again. Gotcha ...that is a totally different kind of "ring", for sure. I'm not even sure I had a name for those in mind (a ridge?).....but whatever it's called, it's bad ju-ju, no doubt. I'd be very worried about a gun that made cases look like that Edit to add: feel free to put that pic on your website if you'd like. I can e-mail a high res copy to you or you can save it off my photobucket accout (same user name as here). Edited May 25, 2009 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 So its safe to say....If the case starts looking like a belted magnum...its not a good thing Chris always has some precise info...and the color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows describing how they were to be used as evidence against us...oh ...thats a diferent story Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 So its safe to say....If the case starts looking like a belted magnum...its not a good thing Chris always has some precise info...and the color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows describing how they were to be used as evidence against us...oh ...thats a diferent story Jim I seem to recall that line from an Arlo Guthrie (sp?) song by the name of "Alice's Restaurant"! You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant, excepting Alice! Oh, and they were 8x10" color glossy pictures too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walter hornby Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Gman, what did you use to cut the case with. i am thinking i have to add those to my government training course and hopefully my reloading course in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Gman, what did you use to cut the case with. i am thinking i have to add those to my government training course and hopefully my reloading course in the future. I used a Dremel tool with one of the small cutoff wheels and then ran it over my vertical belt sander to smooth it up a bit....other than the case getting really hot when doing this, it's easy. I use a pair of needle nose pliers to hold the case after I get the cut started. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 G-ManBart, PM sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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