.38 Super Magazine Problems

[superdude]

CHA-LEE, i agree with the concept - make the top wider than the bottom. thus the "gap" is smaller or cancelled by the wider front of the cartridge.

but there are limitations on how much you can gain from this technique. for example, if there is a 1/8 inch gap between the two top rounds, a couple thousands of an inch will offer little assistance. as you point out, even with your 40 caliber ammo, the difference is in the range of 0.005 inch. before the 40 cases were full length sized, any bulging near the case head that was not removed via sizing might have increased the gap size because of uneven case dimensions. i'm speculating here but its a testable hypothesis. in fact i think i've got some 40 at home i could run the test with (i'm at work now - don't tell my boss!)

the gap in the Witness 38 super magazine isn't huge (compared to a single stack 1911 magazine), but it is substantial and when it is at its largest (when the magazine is full) it allows a nosedive of considerable distance and the cartridge hits quite low on the feed ramp. as BritinUSA mentioned, it might hit below the barrel's ramp in the Tanfoglio (that happens with a 1911 45 single stack magazine with 7 or more rounds in it and with a gun with a frame cut for a ramped barrel). i don't know off-hand what the gap is on a 40 caliber Witness magazine (but i can check it later when i'm home as i have a 10mm Witness). the gap might be much smaller, but this can be examined.

the Para Ordnance mags offer a nice example for this. their design produces: 38 Super (old) magazine = gap. 9mm (new) magazine = no gap. 40 caliber magazine = no gap. 45 caliber magazine = gap. the difference in the 38S and 9mm mags shows how a simple design change can eliminate nosedive in a double column magazine. Tanfoglio, are you listening!! in fact, i'd like to see the Para 45 mags redesigned to remove the gap, too, because they also suffer nosedive feeding failures.

i'll check the Para mags when i get home but my memory suggests that the "alignment" indentation of the 40 magazine is similar to the 38 Super magazine = short. the 40 magazine might help to remove the gap simply because the cartridges are wider than the 38S and are thus simulating the alignment indentation extending farther down the side of the magazine (did that make sense?).

okay, back to work!

[superdude]

okay, i had a chance to look at a Witness 10mm magazine. there was no gap between the top two rounds when i loaded it with 15 factory new 40 caliber ammo. i then tried fired (not sized or loaded) 40 cases and there was a small amount of gap and it certainly changed the angle of the top case due to the irregular shape of the case. i don't have any reloaded 40 to test it with. my test suggests (but does not prove) that irregular 40 cases might contribute to a gap in these magazines.

CHA-LEE, if you have some, try factory new 40 ammo in your mags to see if that eliminates the gap. if it does, it supports (but does not prove) the idea that irregular shaped reloaded cases ontribute to a gap in these magazines. the point here is that straight walled (new or full length sized) 40 caliber cases have no gap in these (Witness) magazines. this assumes that our mags are the same. they look the same comparing mine with your photos.

[BritinUSA]

I tried pinching in one of my mags (about .5" down from the top) and it seems to improve the feeding. I can now remove the rounds much easier from the magazine. The angular gap is still there but the 2nd round now sits more directly underneath the top round which seems to help, A LOT !

I'm going to try modifying another one tomorrow, I have an idea which will make it easier to pinch it in. Then I will try those two mags on Saturday to see how they work. Oddly enough I checked my 28 round magazine and the mag is much thinner near the top than my other ones and seems to work better than my newer magazines.

[CocoBolo]

I have a Gold Team V8 38 Super and it runs 100% on all 15 of the mags that I have one is a big stick the others are 24 rd with base pads some are Meccar. I do use a case pro on my 38 SuperComp brass, only becsuse I picked up a lot of range brass that was fat boyed like it came out of a glock.

I am going to assume that you keep your mags clean, if a mag hits the dirt it gets cleaned before it is used again.

Given all that I have read, I would put a new slide stop in the gun and see if that cures the issue.

There is a nice Video on how to load high cap mags on Hennings Site, I started loading mine like he does in the video and have had no problems. Another thing I always do is shake the mag after it is loaded if it rattles that is a problem that will happen sometimes you take a round out and put it back and no more rattle.

I have a couple of favorite mags I like them beacause the are easy to load the springs seem to be real weak but they always work well. I have both Grams and Dawson followers as well as a few Tanfogilio's all seem to work.

I have a Witness 40 I shot limited with for a while and the only feed issue I had with it was locking open with one round in the mag, I fixed that it never locked open again.

I have more problems with my STI mags than the Eaa mags and gun. The STI mags take little dirt to stop working and if you lose count and try to poke an extra one in the round winds up under the follower.

I have a 40 Silver Team open, that gun will jam at whim mostly stove pipes when the round is not hot enough if it ain't 175 pf or up it just won't run. If you slightly limp rist like when shooting over and wall at low targets your going to wind up with a double feed and have to drop the mag.

I had some issues early on when I was using a real nasty dirty powder HS6, the gun would get very dirty during a match and get sluggish and I would have to clean it. I use N350 now and shoot 300+ round matches with ease and even double shot the gun at one match with no issues.

[BritinUSA]

I tried a new slide pin and that did not fix the issue. One thing I have never been able to do easily is unload the magazines by hand. The rounds would always stick. Now I tried pinching the sides in a bit on one mag (per superdude) I can strip the rounds off by hand and there is NO RESISTANCE WHATSOEVER. Maybe my magazines are older or they are out of spec somewhere, but all of them have had this issue since day one.

Everything superdude said was right on the money, he describes what my magazines were doing without having seen them. When I move the 2nd round directly under the top round (it was off center, left or right) then the top round strips off easily without ANY HANGUP. And this is with old brass no EGW sizing die or roll-sizing, just straight through the normal Dillon de-primer/sizer.

I can't wait to try it on Saturday.

[Powder Finger]

On the Redding die topic........ Magma Engineering used to make a 9MM die that was similar.

It was a Dillon die that was modified.

Although they used a bench press to push from the top down. I would think it could be used like the Redding.

The Redding punch may have to be turned to a smaller diameter?

[Dan Hefta]

Buy a Glock and shoot Production, then you won't have to spend all that money on equipment. The only thing that you will need to worry about is how much ammo you need to bring. I know that I am going to get linched for writing this but I couldn't help it.( I'm a glutten for punishment).

[superdude]

In case folks are curious about what the nosedive gap looks like, here are photos of a Witness 38 Super and 10mm (40 S&W) mags fully loaded to illustrate the gap. The fully loaded 38 Super mag has a gap between the top two rounds, while the 10mm (40 S&W) does not.

Edited May 21, 2009 by superdude

[shooterbenedetto]

That gap happens when I use a wrong follower and mags tubes are not tuned?

Very simple= Henning can surely have a mag that doesnt have the gap for TANS.

HOWARD= Can tune all the mags with no gaps for STI= other gunsmiths.

[CHA-LEE]

superdude> What follower were you using in the 10mm/40 mag? If it was the stock red follower then it won't have a gap. You will just have less rounds in the full mag. Its a trade off. If you want to run the smaller follower that isn't supported from front to back like the stock one, then you will have more tendency to have a gap. But that is the price of getting extra capacity in the magazine. The mag tubes were designed with the stock follower in mind, not the aftermarket ones we are putting into them to get more capacity.

[superdude]

CHA-LEE, I have just the factory followers for the Witness mags. 38 super = 18 rounds. 40/10mm = 15 rounds.

how much do you gain with the competition followers? (forgive my ignorance, i'm a 1911 guy.)

Edited May 21, 2009 by superdude

[BritinUSA]

I use one of Hennings small base pads and a Grams follower/Spring which gives me 20 rounds in the stock magazines. A longer base pad will get you 24 rounds of .38 Super.

I think the .40 gets 20/21 with Hennings Pads and Grams follower combination.

[CHA-LEE]

superdude> I am not sure about the 38 Super, but the .40 mags can load up to 21 rounds with the Henning extended base pad and the Grams follower/spring. I think stock magazine capacity is 15 rounds. When shooting USPSA matches an extra six rounds makes a big difference.

[SA Friday]

It sounds to me like you need to hand form the 'right' grooves in one of the mag bodies to eliminate the gap. Then make a mold, then cast a form of the inside of the 'rightly' formed mag. Then you could simply slide a mag body over the form and reform every mag to the right specs.

After this, double check the feed lips dimensions, smooth and polish, a little laser engraving, reassemble, and BAM the Tan equivalent of a super sexy HSMITH mag.

Seriously, I know nothing about Tanfolios, but it sounds to me the best cure for this problem is to reform one mag and test shoot it. Test shoot it with all kinds of brass and ammo, long and short lengths, old and new brass, reloads with and without the U die. If the reform resolves the issue regardless of ammo specs, you have a huge touchdown.

And I do hope it works. It's been painful to watch your gun puke the last couple of matches and the frustration radiating outward.

Edited to add: I've learned a crap load about mags from this thread. Best hate rant to date!

Edited May 21, 2009 by SA Friday

[2alpha]

A small difference in the profile of the bullet nose can make a big difference in feeding. It changes the spot on the feed ramp the bullet first contacts. You adjust for it by changing the oal, I've ran into it from lot to lot of the same brand and weight bullets and if you change brand be sure and check it out. Fat ended bullets need shorter oals. Also the 40 has an aggresive rim cut which can stack up and grab on each other as they feed up, also related to oal. Lastly did you do anything to change the slide travel? Even changing recoil springs can cause the slide to short stroke causing the problem you are having. Lastly get your sh&^t together before traveling to a match. LOL

[CocoBolo]

Ok, I went out to my metal building got my Gold Team mags out and loaded up 4 of them. I don't have any gap between the first and second round. My gun runs 100%.

I measured the widest points on the brass cases. .408. I use a case pro, but if new brass gives you the same problem that is not the issue.

I also use 124 gr RN Montana Gold bullets with OAL of 1.255-1.260. I am shooting range pickup 38 Super Comp all brands and some have been loaded more times than I would want to count. I had a lot of issues with brass until I found the right powder, aka not too much pressure. I use N350 at 8.0 gr. I was using IMR 7625 at 7.3 gr, but it was a tad high on pressure. I also have used New TJ and StarLine and they both worked flawlessly. I paint my brass with Dykem, makes it easy to find on the range so I only lose a few pieces at each match. I can shoot these bullets in either the Gold Team or my Sti the both run 100%.

My thought is tune the springs. Bend the spring so that it puts more pressure on the front of the bullet. Also looking from the back side of the bullet the follower should lean about 15-20 degrees to the right.

When I unloaded the mags the rounds strip out easy and smooth. I have Grams followers, I have no idea where the springs came from, but they fit and all appear to have been cut off with dull pliers. I also have a few mags with those red Tanfo followers, they also work.

Hope this helps.

[BritinUSA]

Ok, I went out to my metal building got my Gold Team mags out and loaded up 4 of them. I don't have any gap between the first and second round. My gun runs 100%.

And that's why. That gap is the problem. All my mags have the gap, every single one, it shows up with the 6th round and gets progressively worse the more rounds are loaded. I am starting to wonder if all my mags are out of spec.

I measured the widest points on the brass cases. .408. I use a case pro, but if new brass gives you the same problem that is not the issue.

.408 sounds like a lot. My .38 supercomp brass is .384 at the rim (the widest part)

I've been using OAL of 1.245 but loaded some up at 1.250 to try this weekend.

[CocoBolo]

You are right I measured again and the rim is .385 the base of the brass is .380 and at the crimp is .378.

I verified the length again and all of my ammo is between 1.255 and 1.260.

The guy I bought the gun from works for Dawson, he was going to ream the chamber for longer ammo but because of the polygonal rifling he could not do it, it takes a special reamer.

Eaa has the mags if you buy 3 they are $25.00 each, they are 18 round. The big sticks they may have but I think the last time I checked they were $125.00. If you had a new mag and it worked you could use it to figure out whats up with your mags. Henning has mags and he knows a lot about these guns, as does Canyon Creek.

My Silver Team had all kinds of wierd feed problems because the head space on the comp was not correct. I had a smith fit it to .008 clearance between the slide and the comp and it ran perfect after that. So I understand how fustrating it can be.

[BritinUSA]

Not a bad idea.... I'll order up a couple of new magazines and try them out. If they work it gives me something to compare. I might also load some 1.255 rounds as well, just to see how they go.

[BritinUSA]

My two tweaked magazines worked great today. I tried 1.250 (used to be 1.245) and that also seemed to work well. The big surprise was the 1.255 (per Cocobolo). They worked great in one of my un-modified magazines. Shot about 100 rounds today and not a single malfunction

There's another local match tomorrow so I will load up some more 1.255 tonight... longer is always better (at least that's what Amanda used to tell me, somewhat sadly I thought, but I digress). And we'll see how it goes tomorrow.

Thanks to all the great feed-back here, I wonder if the mods can change the title of the thread so it reflects the main issue, '.38 Super Magazine problems' so others can find this wealth of information much easier.

I sense a light at the end of the tunnel. The match tomorrow will determine if it's daylight, or the 3:14 from Denver.

Edited May 23, 2009 by BritinUSA

[Nik Habicht]

Done. Tell me the platform for a subhead? Tanfo? Witness?

[Glk21C]

Tanfoglio

[BritinUSA]

Done. Tell me the platform for a subhead? Tanfo? Witness?

Tanfoglio, the info applies to any .38 though, especially the stuff from superdude. I've been shooting .38 Super for years and I found out stuff about this calibre that I NEVER KNEW before now.

[BritinUSA]

I sense a light at the end of the tunnel. The match tomorrow will determine if it's daylight, or the 3:14 from Denver.

...It was daylight.

Just shot another local match up in Clear Creek. Gun ran great, even my unmodified big-stick (27) ran perfectly with the 1.255 rounds. I did have a light strike on one stage, but I have no pressure signs on any of my spent cases so I'm guessing that was me not seating the primer properly (something I have done before and need to take more care of).

It was my best match in a long time. My frustrating time in the wilderness looks like it is over, and I've started to get some more confidence in my shooting. I was particularly pleased with my last two stages today.

Today was a good day, yesterday wasn't too shabby either.

And tomorrow is Memorial Day; A good time to put things into perspective, all this hassle and stress I have had is nothing compared to that suffered by the loved ones of those we have lost, fighting for what we love most.