.38 Super Magazine Problems

[HSMITH]

Eliminate variables, one at a time or a whole bunch at a time and re-introduce one at a time. Get to the root. I have fixed HUNDREDS of guns over the phone and email with 'magazine' problems.

[Neomet]

Trying to remember here, but didn't Henning say to replace the extractor every so often? Are you around that time?

Just grasping at straws here.....

[Flexmoney]

Mod note: It looks like we are on the road to recovery here. I'm going to move this to the gunsmithing section.

[AlamoShooter]

Get the guy that likes -Taters- to look at it

come on somebody saw that movie

[Precision40]

Drive 1.5 hours to a match, pay the fee only to have equipment malfunctions. It seems the more money I spend on this sport the more unreliable my stuff seems to get. I have NEVER been so FRUSTRATED !!!!!!

I am just about ready to ****ing quit !

I feel your pain brutha, seriously. That's why I got rid of all my $3000 foo-foo guns and only shoot Glocks now. It's much easier on the pocket book and I never have equipment problems.

[dirty whiteboy]

From what I remember when I look down the ejection port at the nose-dive. It seems that the bullet it hitting the bottom of the barrel before the ramp starts. My thinking at the moment is to try a slightly longer OAL, but I only have 0.005" to play with before it starts hitting inside the mag. Not sure if such a small change would make any difference but it's the only thing that I have not changed yet. My usual OAL is 1.245"

Just from my limited exp. of working with the Tanfo mags. I'm thinking that the OAL is OK if your rds are at 1.245, but what if some don't come in right at that spec (longer). Could they be catching the front of the mag and causing the nose dives?

You may want to try 1.230 and see if it's a cure.

[Sterling White]

Sounds to me like you have a gremlin! You know, according to the lore, these mischievous, elf-like creatures are responsible for all kinds of mechanical failures and other problems. Suggest the following: really clean your bench so you have plenty of space to perform the operation, tear the gun completely down - make sure you have a well lighted work area, take your time to clean and inspect every part, and most importantly.....do not have any other pieces of equipment or guns on the bench when performing this ritual. Why? There is a slight possibility that the little buggers from other guns could jump into this one. Also....did I mention that its important to keep bright lights on - they really hate that . Next you will want to put everything back together in a slow methodical and systemmatic way. Expose your gun bag and/or case to the bright lights. You will want to repeat the process again with your mags. Its a painful process but really the only way to remove gremlins!

[BritinUSA]

After closer examination it seems that the round has already hit the middle of the feed ramp before the case slides under the extractor claw. So it's not the extractor. I removed the barrel and with just the slide moving forwards the round is sliding up the right hand side of the breach-face (as I look at it) near the ejector.

I've polished up the breach-face to see if that makes a difference, just have to wait until the next match to see if it works. I'll keep my rounds at 1.245 for now as I don't want to change too many things at the same time. This is really weird.

[SKR]

Jamie, are you trying to think of the name of the movie? Its Sling Blade if you cant think of it and he also like biscuits and mustard!

[CHA-LEE]

Load up your mag all the way and push each round out one at a time by hand. The brass should slide across one another with NO catching. They should slide out of the feed lips like butter. If the base of the brass cases catch on one another as you push the rounds out that will cause nose dive issues. I have to resize the complete case on my .40 S&W brass to eliminate them from catching on one another as they are picked up. You may also have some follower binding issues. When you load the mags up completely the follower gets wedged in between the bottom round and the inside of the magazine tube. If there is any amount of gunk build up, or if your follower is worn out, there will be excessive friction between the two and as you pop the rounds out of the magazine the rounds will not come up fast enough. Once again, load up your mag fully and manually pop the rounds out by hand quickly. The stack of remaining rounds should snap up to the top very quickly. If there is any hesitation or slow movement as the rounds come up, then the follower is getting jammed up on the inside of the mag tube.

I use a dry bike chain lube on the inside of my mags and this completely eliminates the follower against mag tube friction. The only thing that sucks about it is even though its a "Dry" lube it still attracts dust and dirt. If I drop a mag in the dirt for a reload I will put it in the range bag and not use it again until I can fully clean it out and relube it. But, I take 12 mags to a match so that is usually not a problem for me to take magazines out of "Service" for the day if they are dropped in the dirt.

Another thing that is very critical on magazines is the feed lip width. Every round type requires a specific magazine feed lip width. I know for my .40 S&W mags the feed lips have to be at .385 width or jams will happen. I am not sure what feed lip width is needed for your rounds but do some research and I am sure you will find the right width that is needed. ANY time I drop a mag, I will double check the feed lip width to make sure its still good. This is yet another reason why I take a dropped mag out of “Service” for the match if I dump it in the dirt for a reload.

[BritinUSA]

I noticed that with my magazines last night. All the rounds catch a little as the rim slides over the round beneath. It does that with old and new brass. The feed lips are in spec, the problem is the angle that the cases sit at. If I load longer then the 'catch' is a little less as the round beneath can't slide forward as much.

The main problem is I think in the design of the Tanfoglio magazine. I don't think they have the angles quite right, which is why there are so many nose-dive issues with these guns.

[CHA-LEE]

BritinUSA> When I started resizing the whole case down to .415 with the LEE undersize die and the Gizmo the "catching" on one another as you push out the rounds stopped. I am not sure if the guy making the Gizmo makes it for the 38 super as well, but if I was in your shoes, thats the rout I would go. The bases of the cases catching on one another will cause nose dive problems. As the slide picks up the round the bases of the cases catch on one another and it makes the nose of the bullet tip down and if it goes far enough it will butt up against the start of the feed ramp instead of climbing up it.

[superdude]

BritinUSA, just for clarification, lets give some detail on the gun/ammo. based on various comments throughout the thread, i ask the following questions.

are you using a double stack 38 super? Tan/witness?

are you using rimmed (technically semi-rimmed) brass or rimless brass?

is the bullet a round nose or flat nose design?

is the bullet a FMJ, plated, cast, swaged?

Edited May 20, 2009 by superdude

[BritinUSA]

Starline .38 SuperComp and get the same problems with .38 TJ

I get the same problems with new brass or old brass, makes no difference.

124 grain MG round-nose CMJ

1.245 OAL

Tanfoglio .38 Super - double stack magazines. Jams happen with all magazines, one stage they work, the next stage with the same mag will fail.

The cases are jamming up at this point (see picture)

I tried using the EGW undersized die in fact I had been using it for a while and the problem still occurs. It looks to me like the angle that the rounds sit in the magazine is part of the problem. Putting new springs in the magazines seems to make it worse as there is more pressure between the top round and the one underneath where it is sticking.

I've spent about $700 so far trying to get this thing to work right.

Edited May 20, 2009 by BritinUSA

[shooterbenedetto]

Sell the mags and email Grauffel to make you mags that work!!

if you really want that thing, it will cost you some euros but he's been

using them and tuning them and really know how to make them work.

[shooterbenedetto]

BritinUSA> When I started resizing the whole case down to .415 with the LEE undersize die and the Gizmo the "catching" on one another as you push out the rounds stopped. I am not sure if the guy making the Gizmo makes it for the 38 super as well, but if I was in your shoes, thats the rout I would go. The bases of the cases catching on one another will cause nose dive problems. As the slide picks up the round the bases of the cases catch on one another and it makes the nose of the bullet tip down and if it goes far enough it will butt up against the start of the feed ramp instead of climbing up it.

Been there done that, The undersize gizmo guy only did it for .40 caliber only!

[CHA-LEE]

Take your pistol and mags over to Henning and have him check it all out. He shoots open and knows all of the tricks to make it work.

[CHA-LEE]

You can always roll size it to get it undersized but the the Case Pro roll sizer is $$$

[superdude]

BritinUSA, thanks for the additional information. Based on that i'll stick my neck out and make this diagnosis. (note that because i don't have your gun/equipment in my hands i'm speculating a bit so please don't yell at me too much if i'm off base.)

it's not the brass, bullets or overall length. those are just fine. but i'm surprised that you're having this much trouble with round nose FMJ bullets. they can often cure the nosedive issue.

you are correct to note that the rim from the top round sits in the extractor groove of the lower round which does produce drag when the top round moves forward under pressure from the slide. this probably makes nosedive inevitable - if there is a gap between the two top rounds. and a stronger magazine spring makes it worse because it increases the friction between the two top rounds and it's now harder to push the top round's rim past the lower rounds extractor groove.

the problem is the magazine design. the rounds nosedive because they are allowed to nose dive. I have a Witness 38 Super and just looked at the magazine to see if my hunch was on target. it seems to be. if you're Tanfaglio is using the same magazine as the Witness, or similar design, then i can speculate with some confidence.

so here is the test: start loading your ammo in your magazine. after a few rounds there will probably be a gap between the top round and the one under it. as more rounds are loaded the gap tends to increase. it will look a bit like what Virgil has posted on his website at: http://trippresearch.com/obi/techtalk.html - then click on the Angular Gap link. it's a huge problem with single stack magazines - they produce a huge gap between the top round and the one under it as more rounds are loaded. for double stack mags it's less of a problem, but it does depend on the specific magazine design. so try that and see if the gap is present. also press down on the nose of the top round as you add more rounds and you'll likely see that it tends to dip farther as more rounds are loaded.

(see figure 6 and Table 3 on my website <http://www.38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html> for what happens to cartridge angle when lots of ammo is in a single stack mag.)

and i want to make a prediction: you have more trouble with nosedives when you have more ammo in the magazine. right or wrong?

if the gap is present, nosedive happen, probably every time there is a gap and until the gap is no longer present. if the gap is not present and you're getting nosedives, there are a couple of other possibilities. first, if there is no gap between the two top rounds then nosedives should not occur - BUT THIS ASSUMES THAT THE ROUNDS UNDER THE SECOND ROUND ARE AT THE SAME ANGLE AS THE SECOND ROUND AND ARE SUPPORTING THE SECOND ROUND. IF THERE IS A GAP BETWEEN THE SECOND ROUND AND THE THRID ROUND, NOSEDIVES COULD STILL HAPPEN. the problem is that it might be tough to see the gap between the second and third rounds, or deeper. another problem might be that the follower is not properly supported by the spring. try pushing down on the front of the follower to test how much it tilts and how much pressure is required for that. but as more rounds are put in the magazine the follower angle becomes less important. in single stack 1911 mags after a certain number of rounds are loaded the follower angle has no bearing on the angle of the upper rounds.

minor changes in magazine design can correct the problem. There is a perfect real-world example of how to correct the gap problem. Para Ordnance made a change in their 38S/9mm magazines at some point in the past. the minor design change eliminated completely the gap between the top round and the one under it as more rounds were loaded in the magazine. see the figure at my website here: <http://www.38super.net/Pages/Para%20Magazines.html>

they have an indent groove in the upper portion of the magazine that helps the double stacked rounds form a single column as they approach the top of the magazine. in the "old" 38 super magazines there was a slight gap between the top 2 rounds when the mags were full. the "new" 9mm mags don't produce this gap (with either 38S or 9mm ammo). the change they made was to extend the deep groove farther down into the magazine, so that the round started to form a single column a little lower. this changed the angle of the cartridges a bit more, so that the round under the top round had a better angle and fully supported the full length of the top round - in other words, the gap was gone. the nosedive problem was cured.

i've read that some folks have tried to modify their Para 45 mags in the same way - they have a little bit of a gap between the top round and the one under it when the mags start to fill up. essentially, they used some vise-grips (or anything that would work) to "extend" the "transition" groove a bit lower.

you can do this experiment as well. if there is a gap between the top two rounds, slide a thin screwdriver blade (or rod or whatever rigid tool is around) inside the magazine at the side of the front of the cartridges, and then ease the nose of one of the underlying rounds closer to the midline. this ought to change the angle of the second round so that the gap disappears. you're mimicking what the extended "transition" groove does. that's what i did to prove the concept when i was trying to figure out why the Para 9mm magazines produced no gap and the 38 Super ones did. i tried the same thing on my Para 45 mags and sure enough, i could eliminate the gap that easy.

test all this and then let me know what happens.

if what i've written isn't clear (very possible considering the amount of my brain damage - that and i'm too lazy to proof read this stuff) let me know and i'll try to clarify things.

if you look at your mags and this all starts to make sense, you could bravely try to modify one of your mags to see if the gap goes away. if it works, let me know.

[BritinUSA]

...after a few rounds there will probably be a gap between the top round and the one under it.

yes, exactly right ! The gap starts to appear with the 6th round.

...and i want to make a prediction: you have more trouble with nosedives when you have more ammo in the magazine. right or wrong?

Right again. The jams occur when there are more rounds in the magazine, ie. start of the stage or following a reload.

they have an indent groove in the upper portion of the magazine that helps the double stacked rounds form a single column as they approach the

My magazines have a similar groove that goes down quite a way but it goes nowhere near the second round in the magazine. The walls of the magazine are significantly wider than the case of the second bullet. I can swing the second round left to right by about .25 inch.

If I line up the second round with a small screwdriver the top round slides off without any effort. You're right, the gap between first/second round is the problem.

Edited May 20, 2009 by BritinUSA

[CHA-LEE]

The "Gap" issue is the same cause of the nose dive in the .40 mags as well. When I used an undersize die and resized the whole case down to .415 this makes the rounds lay on one another fully with no gap. The picture below is a fully loaded .40 mag of mine with the .415 undersized cases. No gap and no more nose dives.

Since there wont be any magazine changes any time soon, the only solution today is to run undersized cases. At least that is the only solution I was able to find for the .40 stuff. You need to find a way to resize the whole case. The only push though fill case resizers that I know of are the Gizmo and the Redding G-Rx. But I have only heard of both of those being available for .40 cases. You may be forced to get a Case Pro roll sizer or work with someone that has a roll sizer.

[superdude]

The "Gap" issue is the same cause of the nose dive in the .40 mags as well. When I used an undersize die and resized the whole case down to .415 this makes the rounds lay on one another fully with no gap. The picture below is a fully loaded .40 mag of mine with the .415 undersized cases. No gap and no more nose dives.

Since there wont be any magazine changes any time soon, the only solution today is to run undersized cases. At least that is the only solution I was able to find for the .40 stuff. You need to find a way to resize the whole case. The only push though fill case resizers that I know of are the Gizmo and the Redding G-Rx. But I have only heard of both of those being available for .40 cases. You may be forced to get a Case Pro roll sizer or work with someone that has a roll sizer.

you can test whether this might or might not work in your 38 Super Tanfoglio by using new, unfired cases (but loaded with bullets to prevent case collapse under spring pressure). load them in the magazine and if the gap is still there, then roll sizing or sizing the whole case is not likely change to anything.

[BritinUSA]

you can test whether this might or might not work in your 38 Super Tanfoglio by using new, unfired cases (but loaded with bullets to prevent case collapse under spring pressure). load them in the magazine and if the gap is still there, then roll sizing or sizing the whole case is not likely change to anything.

The gap is still there with new cases, which explains why the problem affects both old/new brass.

[CHA-LEE]

superdude> On the .40 rounds, when you undesize the whole case the base of the case is .415 and the top where the bullet is pushed in is .420. This diamiter difference (fatter at the top, skinner on the bottom) between the top and bottom of the round offset the "Pinching" of the bases of the cases together which causes the gap between the front of the rounds. This Gap situation is a magazine design issue which casues the bases of the cases to be mashed together instead of an even pressure across the round from front to back. The only solutions for this is to either "A" change the magazine design, which isn't happening any time soon. Or "B" change the profile of the round to offset the incorrect stack up pressure, which you can do today and solve the problem.

[CHA-LEE]

This obviously only works if you undersize the whole case from top to bottom. If you just put an undersize die in your press and leave the base of the case at the normal size it will give the round an hour glass profile, which actually makes the Gap and catching on one another as they strip past each other situation worse.

Edited May 20, 2009 by CHA-LEE