UltraTen Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 This happened a couple of weeks ago at a local match. Not to me luckily, but to a fellow shooter and friend. To make a long story short, the shooter is on the line and the RO "are you ready", shooter "yes", RO "stand by", The RO's cellphone rings then the inevitable "beep". The shooter still runs the stage and does OK, of course not up to his usual skill level. We all stood around trying to figure out if this would be considered a stage malfunction or what it would fall under in the rules. What do you guy's think. Should the shooter be allowed to rerun the stage?? Should the shooter have been stopped and restarted?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) Reshoot the COF was not the same for him.... Call it an RO failure. I would have let him go and asked him if he wanted a reshoot before I called the time or scored and targets. That way, if he kept his shit together and had a good run, in spite of my Fu, I wouldn't take the run away from him. If on the other hand I caused him to blow the stage I would treat it as RO interference with the shooter, just like bumping, and offered the reshoot. 8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply. Edited May 4, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) The appropriate and simplest thing would have been for the shooter to not react to the timer. The RO would then start over at "Are you ready." 8.3.4 -rvb edit: mis-read and didn't realize it was the RO's phone. If I was the shooter and it was MY phone I would chuck it (I seldom have my cell on me; I hate the thing). I would not chuck the ROs phone nor would I be upset w/ the RO. Edited May 5, 2009 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraTen Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 The appropriate and simplest thing would have been for the shooter to not react to the timer. The RO would then start over at "Are you ready" once the shooter has thrown his cell into the berm.8.3.4 -rvb There wasn't very much time between the cell phone going off and the beep. Not enough to even make the distinction. The shooter had a great reaction time to the beep though. I like where you wanted to put the cell phone.......I was thinking somewhere else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The appropriate and simplest thing would have been for the shooter to not react to the timer. The RO would then start over at "Are you ready" once the shooter has thrown his cell into the berm.8.3.4 -rvb There wasn't very much time between the cell phone going off and the beep. Not enough to even make the distinction. The shooter had a great reaction time to the beep though. I like where you wanted to put the cell phone.......I was thinking somewhere else I like where you wanted to put the cell phone.......I was thinking somewhere else Me too! ~mumbles something about cell phones and recktus~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I'm sorry, are we talking about a tennis match or a game of golf? Let's see open guns going off in adjoining pits, the occasional piece of shrapnel coming over the berm, sliding around on gravel or sand, but a cell phone ringing is really a distraction? I think 8.6.4 provides for a fine remedy, as does 8.3.4 ---- but I'd never ask for either as the shooter..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h2osport Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 This last weekend, on a stage the timer got switched to par time with 0.5 sec setting. I heard the start signal and then about halfway through my draw I heard it again. Makes you hesitate. It was a 2 day class, and we were using our first runs on each stage for a match. No big deal, but it does catch you. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf219 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I'm sorry, are we talking about a tennis match or a game of golf? Let's see open guns going off in adjoining pits, the occasional piece of shrapnel coming over the berm, sliding around on gravel or sand, but a cell phone ringing is really a distraction?I think 8.6.4 provides for a fine remedy, as does 8.3.4 ---- but I'd never ask for either as the shooter..... Yeah, really, what Nik said, If youve ever shot with Jim Norman then youd know what a real distraction is. Id kindly take a cell phone over the monotone voice of JN talking about silly things that have no bearing on my attempt at a COF! LOL! I just couldnt resist Nik! H! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 ... but a cell phone ringing is really a distraction? Well, lets be clear here. It has no place being on the course of fire. The Range Officer isn't part of the shooting problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 ... but a cell phone ringing is really a distraction? Well, lets be clear here. It has no place being on the course of fire. The Range Officer isn't part of the shooting problem. Most of us wear electronic hearing protection --- and as a result can hear most of the squad in the bay at Make Ready. So how is a phone in the ROs pocket different than a phone in a squadmember's pocket, when that squadmember is standing close enough for the competitor to hear the phone? It seems to me that we have rules in place to deal with this situation, so why are we still having the conversation? And why are some folks advocating either chucking the phone (which is an inanimate object that didn't do anything) over the berm, or advocating violence against the RO? (And I'm pretty sure that was tongue in cheek......) Man up and shoot! :roflol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Most of us can tell the difference between a sound from the other bay, and one right next to us. If I'm waiting for the buzzer and the phone goes off loudly right next to me, I'd probably jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 ... but a cell phone ringing is really a distraction? Well, lets be clear here. It has no place being on the course of fire. The Range Officer isn't part of the shooting problem. Most of us wear electronic hearing protection --- and as a result can hear most of the squad in the bay at Make Ready. So how is a phone in the ROs pocket different than a phone in a squadmember's pocket, when that squadmember is standing close enough for the competitor to hear the phone? It seems to me that we have rules in place to deal with this situation, so why are we still having the conversation? And why are some folks advocating either chucking the phone (which is an inanimate object that didn't do anything) over the berm, or advocating violence against the RO? (And I'm pretty sure that was tongue in cheek......) Man up and shoot! :roflol: No comment beyond: good reminder to avoid the issue entirely by setting my cell to vibrate next match. AND - please continue you two; this is quite entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precision40 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 ... but a cell phone ringing is really a distraction? Well, lets be clear here. It has no place being on the course of fire. The Range Officer isn't part of the shooting problem. +1 In this case he did the right thing, he shot the COF and accepted his score. Local match you can get away with it with a bit of teasing, but do it at a level 2 or or higher? Let the timer run... After I get get my belt, gun, mags, hearing protection and everything else on I don't have a place for a phone, that's why it stays in my bag. External Influence? If I was the RM I'd say no re-shoots for cell-phones. External influences for example are like at the Tulsa Natl's 2 years ago, I get the "Standby" command, then a Helicopter pops up over the berm downrange taking video. Other influences are animals running through the COF etc.... Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Only the shooter can determine if a cell phone was a distraction or not, and if it was he should have stopped right then, not after he shot the stage. Flex$ could not be any more right, it has no business on the COF and out of respect for the competitors the RO should have left the phone in the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I'd say stop the guy and start over if you can. As a shooter, especially w/ electronic ears, all sorts of things can affect your run. This past weekend I was on a stage in a very small bay where the gallery was only ten or fifteen feet from where the shooter would be engaging his first target. Someone in the squad was telling a funny story about something that happened at another match and, right after the buzzer went off while the shooter was engaging the first array, the story teller said "so the RO says to this guy Whoah whoah". It was basically the punch line to the story and he said it quite loudly. He didn't think about the shooter being so close but the shooter heard and actually paused during his run. Unfortunately, the RO didn't notice so the shooter had to accept the second or so the distraction cost him and go on. If you are on the timer, I think you have a duty to give the shooter as undisturbed a run as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Man up and shoot! How about...man up and turn off the ball and chain connection to home. :roflol: (unless, of course, you need to be connected for emergency reasons...which would be a good reason not to be running shooters) Take a football or basketball game... We can expect players to get taunted and have giant foam fingers waving at them. What we don't expect is for the officials or the other players at those games to be running around with their phones going off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphire Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Only the shooter can determine if a cell phone was a distraction or not, and if it was he should have stopped right then, not after he shot the stage. Flex$ could not be any more right, it has no business on the COF and out of respect for the competitors the RO should have left the phone in the car. I have to disagree. A shooter should never stop himself unless he's willing to take a zero on the stage if the RO disagrees with his reasoning. If I think I've shot a squib then yes, I'll stop myself due to a safety concern, but otherwise I'm going to keep on going. If I stop myself because I think I know the situation better than the RO, then I'm always going to run the risk of a zeroed stage. The shooter should have shot the course of fire and then politely discuss it with the RO per 8.6.4 to see what the RO wishes to do, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Man up and shoot! How about...man up and turn off the ball and chain connection to home. Well, there's an assumption....... :roflol: (unless, of course, you need to be connected for emergency reasons...which would be a good reason not to be running shooters) Around here, that might mean no ROs..... Take a football or basketball game... We can expect players to get taunted and have giant foam fingers waving at them. What we don't expect is for the officials or the other players at those games to be running around with their phones going off. O.K., and if you're going to pay me what football and basketball players/officials make to shoot/RO, then you too can dictate that the phone needs to stay off the field...... I'm only perplexed that we're talking about this --- ROs (and by extension shooters) already have a remedy in the rulebook. I don't see this as an issue. I'd be pretty likely as an RO to offer a reshoot if anything under my direct control might have affected a shooter's run; but as a shooter I'm certainly not going to be a wuss and request a reshoot because an RO's phone rang. Now, if the RO answered the phone, that would be a different issue -- been there, seen that, stopped and reshot the shooter. (But that was a safety call.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I didn't say the shooter should stop himself after he started, he should have stopped immediately, or better wording would be "do not react to the "beep". The RO cannot read the mind of the shooter to know if they were distracted by the phone ringing, so the competitor must illustrate that by remaining in the required start position. My point is, he should never start, per rule: 8.3.4 “Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from “Are You Ready?”. The RO would have to offer or allow the competitor a reshoot if the RO feels the outside interference might have effected the shooters run per rule: 8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. But the shooter would have to say something to the RO after completing the COF and without seeing the time or the score, and politely request consideration for a reshoot. In my neck of the woods, if you stop yourself all your going to get is a timer held in your direct line of sight and a smile from the RO as you turn to look at them for direction on what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h2osport Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Just start the course of fire on the cell phone ring. "sounded like the start signal to me" Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I'm only perplexed that we're talking about this --- ROs (and by extension shooters) already have a remedy in the rulebook. I don't see this as an issue. I'd be pretty likely as an RO to offer a reshoot if anything under my direct control might have affected a shooter's run; but as a shooter I'm certainly not going to be a wuss and request a reshoot because an RO's phone rang. Now, if the RO answered the phone, that would be a different issue -- been there, seen that, stopped and reshot the shooter. (But that was a safety call.....) I'm still talking about it because I disagree with categorizing a shooter as a "wuss", when the RO should be doing the right thing in the first place. From National Championships to local bragging rights...we see the differences between shooters amount to a quarter of an inch on one shot, or tenth of a second or two. If a Range Official is doing anything that could be construed as interfering with the shooter, then they should take certain steps to curtail that behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I will go ahead an relate the 4 instances that come to mind of possible interference that I have experienced as a shooter: - One was just this past weekend. I took a step back and to the right when coming out of a position and the RO just barely grazed me. He...properly...offered a reshoot (before giving time or scoring). I declined. My shooting had not been impacted. - Another was earlier this year. As I finished up shooting most of a mag full of targets at the end of a stage, I "felt" the RO hovering on me. Sure enough, I turned my head about 10d and he had the timer so close that it bumped into my ear muffs. No reshoot, but that was a teaching opportunity for the rather new RO. - Years ago, as I finished up on a cof, I snapped the gun hard to the right to make up a mike on a target that I had shot coming into the last position. The RO was in the way...big time. I didn't take the shot. I stopped short of covering him with the muzzle and/or shooting the timer out of his hand. He was clueless. I clued him in. - At Nationals, CRO was running me after lunch break. He has grabbed up the radio during lunch and forgot he had it on him. It went off nice and loud during my run. He (an RMI) felt really bad about that and offered me a reshoot. While it caught my attention, it went off as I was seating a mag and moving about 5y to the final shooting position. It hadn't made a difference in my shooting. I declined the reshoot. Hopefully we can use these examples as learning experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 If a Range Official is doing anything that could be construed as interfering with the shooter, then they should take certain steps to curtail that behavior. And on that we agree 100%...... The rest of it --- well, if you request a reshoot from me, I'll be calling YOU a wuss all day. :roflol: Everyone else, not so much..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I will go ahead an relate the 4 instances that come to mind of possible interference that I have experienced as a shooter:- One was just this past weekend. I took a step back and to the right when coming out of a position and the RO just barely grazed me. He...properly...offered a reshoot (before giving time or scoring). I declined. My shooting had not been impacted. - Another was earlier this year. As I finished up shooting most of a mag full of targets at the end of a stage, I "felt" the RO hovering on me. Sure enough, I turned my head about 10d and he had the timer so close that it bumped into my ear muffs. No reshoot, but that was a teaching opportunity for the rather new RO. - Years ago, as I finished up on a cof, I snapped the gun hard to the right to make up a mike on a target that I had shot coming into the last position. The RO was in the way...big time. I didn't take the shot. I stopped short of covering him with the muzzle and/or shooting the timer out of his hand. He was clueless. I clued him in. - At Nationals, CRO was running me after lunch break. He has grabbed up the radio during lunch and forgot he had it on him. It went off nice and loud during my run. He (an RMI) felt really bad about that and offered me a reshoot. While it caught my attention, it went off as I was seating a mag and moving about 5y to the final shooting position. It hadn't made a difference in my shooting. I declined the reshoot. Hopefully we can use these examples as learning experiences. And those are all pretty terrific examples. I once witnessed an RO answering a cell phone between Are You Ready and Standby --- and his finger slipped off the yellow timer's button..... Had to stop that shooter --- and converse with the RO afterwards..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 The shooter brought the cell phone into the COF with him. If it goes off he should be able to ignore it until after hes done shooting. If not then he can answer it, take down his "Honey-Do" list, then continue the C.O.F. A re-shoot? Please! JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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