Which 6 inch SS 1911 in .45?

[chrisjohn]

I am looking to get into a 6 inch 1911 in .45 ACP for limited 10. After a poor initial experience, I have narrowed the selection down to an STI Trojan from Dawson Precision or a Les Baer PM II. The Baer will be nearly 500 more. Not necessarily looking to save money, just want an honest assessment of the two pistols. Thanks and take care,

[Steve J]

The Baer is the better built gun for the money, but if you want to spend that much for a gun specifically limited to L-10 shooting, look at the Les Baer Monolith Heavyweight. You'll have the same if not more weight up front with less reciprocating slide mass, which is very desirable. The extra sight radius on the 6" will only benefit you on accuracy intensive shots. Just MHO.

[G-ManBart]

I am looking to get into a 6 inch 1911 in .45 ACP for limited 10. After a poor initial experience, I have narrowed the selection down to an STI Trojan from Dawson Precision or a Les Baer PM II. The Baer will be nearly 500 more. Not necessarily looking to save money, just want an honest assessment of the two pistols. Thanks and take care,

Street price on a 6" Trojan is $1300 and the PM II is $2K so you're looking at really $700 difference, but still, I think most people would agree that the PM II is a "better" gun on the whole.

With that said, for just a little bit more I'd have someone build me exactly what I wanted before I'd drop $2K on the Les Baer....especially if you're not trying to save money. That will definitely get you a better gun that's built to your wants and needs.

Why a skinny gun for L-10? There's a bit of an advantage of running a double stack with easier reloads and you always have the option of going Limited should you ever want to. A .45 in Lim isn't the best choice, but it's still an option. R,

[chrisjohn]

I am looking to get into a 6 inch 1911 in .45 ACP for limited 10. After a poor initial experience, I have narrowed the selection down to an STI Trojan from Dawson Precision or a Les Baer PM II. The Baer will be nearly 500 more. Not necessarily looking to save money, just want an honest assessment of the two pistols. Thanks and take care,

Street price on a 6" Trojan is $1300 and the PM II is $2K so you're looking at really $700 difference, but still, I think most people would agree that the PM II is a "better" gun on the whole.

With that said, for just a little bit more I'd have someone build me exactly what I wanted before I'd drop $2K on the Les Baer....especially if you're not trying to save money. That will definitely get you a better gun that's built to your wants and needs.

Why a skinny gun for L-10? There's a bit of an advantage of running a double stack with easier reloads and you always have the option of going Limited should you ever want to. A .45 in Lim isn't the best choice, but it's still an option. R,

I don't have a good local smith anymore, and I just like the feel of the SS frames, plus I'm all set up with 10 round SS mags, pouches, ETC...but maybe I should call Benny Hill and see what the damage would be.

[uscbigdawg]

For a 6" singlestack, I'd go either STI, SV or Springfield. Then, probably outside of the SV, send it to get it tweaked the way I like it. That's if going the "factory" gun route. These guys support the sport and so that's where we should spend our dollars.

Now, if I'm building a 6" gun, I'd just have a gun completely built up on a STI 2011 frame, from Benny Hill. One of his Fat Free's is it. For the price, you're not much more than the Les Baer. You have the option to go to Limited if you want. As for 40 vs. 45, that's a personal decision. Rarely does the round number difference matter. Get good at reloading and it's not a factor. Proof? We had a lot of stages this weekend where the iron sighted single stacks & Production guns out did MANY Open & Limited guns.

Being that you're in Arkansas, ask around at some of the local clubs and see if folks will let you shoot their gun. Odds are they will and you can see what you like and don't like. If you're really set on a 6" singlestack...my first turn would be Springfield.

Rich

ETA: 6" SA and then sent to Benny to get lightened up.

Edited April 28, 2009 by uscbigdawg

[G-ManBart]

As for 40 vs. 45, that's a personal decision. Rarely does the round number difference matter. Get good at reloading and it's not a factor. Proof? We had a lot of stages this weekend where the iron sighted single stacks & Production guns out did MANY Open & Limited guns.

A moving reload costs half a second (at least). Jake DaVita pointed that out and I've found it to be true after timing a few drills. We had a 30 round stage at our last match that I ran with my Open gun and then ran it with my Production rig (just for fun) after everyone was done (it was our last stage) and I was three seconds slower...four reloads to one, all moving....and my reloads are pretty solid. I figure a second and a half for the reloads and a second and a half for the ease of the dot. Same guy, same stage, both solid runs...noticable difference in time and these weren't long/hard shots....it was mostly mag capacity that made the difference (a little easier with the dot, of course).

Still, I agree, a 6" 2011 would be a better choice all around (for most people) than a skinny gun for L-10.

[steel1212]

As for 40 vs. 45, that's a personal decision. Rarely does the round number difference matter. Get good at reloading and it's not a factor. Proof? We had a lot of stages this weekend where the iron sighted single stacks & Production guns out did MANY Open & Limited guns.

A moving reload costs half a second (at least). Jake DaVita pointed that out and I've found it to be true after timing a few drills. We had a 30 round stage at our last match that I ran with my Open gun and then ran it with my Production rig (just for fun) after everyone was done (it was our last stage) and I was three seconds slower...four reloads to one, all moving....and my reloads are pretty solid. I figure a second and a half for the reloads and a second and a half for the ease of the dot. Same guy, same stage, both solid runs...noticable difference in time and these weren't long/hard shots....it was mostly mag capacity that made the difference (a little easier with the dot, of course).

Still, I agree, a 6" 2011 would be a better choice all around (for most people) than a skinny gun for L-10.

Bart, I would like to see you do it with your open gun then go back and do it with a limited gun shooting L10....I wonder how much time the Limited gun would shave off the production run vs the open gun and not doing any reloads?

[pjb45]

The Trojan is a very accurate pistol. However, you will probably need to send it out for reliability work. You might or will end up replacing parts; sears, hammers, trigger shoes, sights, and maybe the safeties.

With a Nowlin, Wilson or Baer, you generally do not have to do anything.

If you are interested in adding weight, you can consider a tungsten guide rod.

You might want to look at the Nowlin website. He builds a very fine gun and its price is reasonable.

I own a Trojan, my next OTS Single Stack will not be an STI but a Nowlin, Wilson, or Baer.

[Airedale]

It's not on your short list but.....RIA match 6". $700 msrp.

Tons of features, dead nuts reliable, superb warranty.

I have one and it runs fine.

Dave

[uscbigdawg]

Bart - Matt Burkett on video showed that it's a wash.

Rich

[chrisjohn]

Who is a good dealer for Baer guns? Also recommendation STI?

[G-ManBart]

Bart - Matt Burkett on video showed that it's a wash.

Rich

What's a wash? Reloading? Magazine capacity? First off, I doubt most folks can reload quite as well as Burkett can. The lower the skill level, the more a reload hurts you. Still, nobody can run and reload as fast as they can just run....can't be done. If it's three steps it may not be much difference because you can't run that distance, but anything more, it matters. It certainly matters when I time myself and I'm not a slouch at reloads. Jake mentioned it, I thought about it, timed myself and found he was correct....it's half a second or more in most cases.

Suggesting mag capacity doesn't matter is silly man . Take anybody and give them a 14 round Limited gun (.45) and a 21 round limited gun (40), let them shoot ten matches with each and they're going to do better with the 21 round gun, guaranteed....assuming they both run 100%. Just because a Master in SS can beat a B in Lim, or some other such comparison doesn't mean anything. Take a bunch of equally skilled shooters and suddenly magazine capacity can, and will, be the difference in how they place on some stages. Not always, of course, but more than enough times per match that it's significant. Even if it just means letting you reload where you want to versus where you have to, it can be an advantage.

Thread drift off....

Something else that occurred to me about a skinny 6" gun for L-10. Should you ever want to sell it, nowhere near as many folks are going to be interested in it. A skinny 5" gun will always have some folks interested in it and a hi-cap 6" gun will always have some folks interested in it....a skinny 6" not so much. I can get a typical S_I grip to feel pretty darned close to a skinny grip....not quite, but pretty good...and others can as well. That plus the ability to move weight around the way someone like Benny does might make for a compelling case. R,

[G-ManBart]

Who is a good dealer for Baer guns? Also recommendation STI?

STI I'd see if either Chuck at SC or Dawson had one. Not sure on Baer. R,

[chrisjohn]

Something else that occurred to me about a skinny 6" gun for L-10. Should you ever want to sell it, nowhere near as many folks are going to be interested in it. A skinny 5" gun will always have some folks interested in it and a hi-cap 6" gun will always have some folks interested in it....a skinny 6" not so much. I can get a typical S_I grip to feel pretty darned close to a skinny grip....not quite, but pretty good...and others can as well. That plus the ability to move weight around the way someone like Benny does might make for a compelling case. R,

Custom 6 inch STI widebody is 3k.... I know, I know, have to pay to play.... Don't plan on selling... I really have broken that bad habit.

Edited April 28, 2009 by chrisjohn

[Airedale]

Who is a good dealer for Baer guns? Also recommendation STI?

Crazy John at Proload usually has the better deals on Baer.

Shooters Connection is great for STI.

Dave

[bbbean]

Custom 6 inch STI widebody is 3k.... I know, I know, have to pay to play.... Don't plan on selling... I really have broken that bad habit.

Watch the classifieds here. I picked up a VERY sweet 6" Limited gun (Jim Anglin, SVI frame, Caspian slide, tons of goodies set up perfectly) this winter for $2200 including a mag and shipping. At the time, I had the choice of several guns within $500 either side of that deal. Lots of guys selling nice guns under $3K here.

FWIW, I agree with hte logic that says if you want a 6 incher, go for an S_I. If you want a single stack, run something that can also run Single Stack or CDP.

[mwx40x40]

For what it's worth,I picked up a used 6" Springfield Trophy Match. Added a Dawson FO front sight ,SA magwell and the late Tommy Abernathy tuned the trigger. I couldn't have been happier. Gun runs 100% and accurate.After all was said and done have less the 1K in it.

[zhunter]

Why a skinny gun for L-10? There's a bit of an advantage of running a double stack with easier reloads and you always have the option of going Limited should you ever want to. A .45 in Lim isn't the best choice, but it's still an option. R,

I am all about SS's and .45's, but Bart has this nailed down early in this thread.

I don't care if it is limited or limited-10, if it starts with limited, a 2011 is the ONLY way to go!!!

You say you have the 10 round .45 mags, fine and dandy, but if you are not trying to save money, get the 2011 and get the best mags you can buy for it!!! There are great deals out there right now, be patient and a good deal will hit you within two weeks.

[uscbigdawg]

Bart - Going to have to agree to disagree.

chris - Just comes down to how much you want to spend. I played with Taran's single stack gun he was using in L-10 this weekend. That thing was pretty sweet. Sight Tracker barrel and carved up trigger guard. A nice 5" blaster.

Hell...why not have Benny build you a Fat Free w/ 2 barrels/ejectors using a SV slide. Just food for thought.

Go with what you want to shoot, not what you "should" shoot. I use a single stack (occasionally) in L-10 and it's just a ton of fun.

Rich

[wide45]

Sight Tracker on a single stack, puts you in Open Division only.

NROI Rulings

Title: Raised rib barrel legality

Created: 8/14/04

Updated: 7/31/08

Effective: 8/07/08

Rule number: Appx D2 Spec

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Ruling

SV has provided confirmation that the "Sight Tracker" has met the requirements of 500 produced and a year of production in .40S&W with a 5" barrel. Calibers in other than .40S&W are not allowed and raised rib barrels other than 5" are not allowed. This configuration will only be allowed on wide body guns, as this is how SV produced it.

Return to NROI Rulings

Copyright © 2004-2008 USPSA, P.O. Box 811, Sedro Woolley WA 98284

Edited April 28, 2009 by wide45

[uscbigdawg]

Not if you're using it in L-10.

Rich

[wide45]

Not if you're using it in L-10.

Rich

Nope.

Limited, and Lim10 rules are identical, except for item 9; Maximum ammunition capacity.

Anything not legal for Limited, is also not legal for Lim10.

Edited April 28, 2009 by wide45

[G-ManBart]

Bart - Going to have to agree to disagree.

You can disagree all you want, but you're only arguing with facts and not opinions. Have you timed yourself? If you had, you'd know the reality of it and not just what someone else showed in a video of incredibly limited scope. Not to mention of incredible talent beyond that of 99.9% of the shooters out there. It may not matter to Matt, but it matters to almost everybody else.

Why not time yourself and video it rather than just type opinions about it? I'd LOVE to be wrong, but I know I'm not....heck, I love you to prove me wrong as that would open up lots of possibilities. Last time I ran into something like this I timed it, video'd it and posted it on YouTube. Be brave man....

To keep it from being more thread drift, I'll just start a thread in the appropriate place and we'll see which theory is right one way or the other as that's all I'm really interested in.

[uscbigdawg]

Well...since your panties are all in a bunch, I'll say this. If Matt can do it, anyone can do it. I personally do not buy in to the idea that only a select few can do specific things.

As for timing myself, yeah I've done it. The difference was not enough to matter as I rarely run as fast as I can from a position. The majority of times I'm at a good speed and one where I can do other things with little impact. I posted a video a while ago of a stage at a club. Set up something similar where I didn't reload going in to shooting a plate rack on the move (as I did during the match). Time was about .3.

So as for facts, since we're talking about an individuals decision to run at a speed that they determine, it's hardly substantive. More subjective than factual....speaking scientifically of course.

Rich

ETA: If video of Matt on PSV4 isn't enough, you can take the comment from our host when discussing speed between him and Robbie at the STC. If I recall who was doing what, Brian chose to run full out, where Robbie chose to go at a medium/fast stroll. The time was about the same. Now...if that's possible (meaning covering the same distance and execution of action) then, would it not be just as feasible to say that if you are someone that runs full speed and reloads, you could be just as fast as someone that chooses to go at a medium/fast stroll and doesn't? Maybe some folks (myself included) run faster than their normal movement speed when the stage plan calls for a movement and a reload. Is that possible? If so, then the facts are not facts at all and again are subjective.

Edited April 29, 2009 by uscbigdawg

[Singlestack]

Nobody's panties are in a bunch Rich.