Should this be 6 proceedurals or 1?

[PistolPete]

This is the stage design. There are 3 shooting boxes and a free fire zone. Starting in box A you needed to shoot 6 pieces of steel. Then, move into free fire zone and engage a few targets. The stage was set up like the letter "T". The first box was at the bottom of the T and the 2nd and 3rd box at the far ends of each side. The description stated that the 3 left hand targets needed to be shot from the left box and the 3 right hand targets from the right box. Now, one of the shooters shot this stage and engaged all 6 targets from the left hand box. So, he should get 6 proceedurals for taking 6 shots are the wrong target. CORRECT???

There was a HUGE advantage to shoot this stage this way because now you don't have to run all the way accross the range to engage the final 3 targets. Should this count for 1 or 6 proceedurals? The shooter complained to the R.O. who was going to issue 6 proceedurals who then changed the score to reflect 1. I just want to know for myself because I like to play by the rules and think the rules should be enforced the way they were written but if I'm wrong in thinking there should be 6 procedurals then I want to know so if I make the same mistake at another match then I will only incur 1 procedural.

Thanks in advance,

Pete

[maineshootah]

This is the stage design. There are 3 shooting boxes and a free fire zone. Starting in box A you needed to shoot 6 pieces of steel. Then, move into free fire zone and engage a few targets. The stage was set up like the letter "T". The first box was at the bottom of the T and the 2nd and 3rd box at the far ends of each side. The description stated that the 3 left hand targets needed to be shot from the left box and the 3 right hand targets from the right box. Now, one of the shooters shot this stage and engaged all 6 targets from the left hand box. So, he should get 6 proceedurals for taking 6 shots are the wrong target. CORRECT???

There was a HUGE advantage to shoot this stage this way because now you don't have to run all the way accross the range to engage the final 3 targets. Should this count for 1 or 6 proceedurals? The shooter complained to the R.O. who was going to issue 6 proceedurals who then changed the score to reflect 1. I just want to know for myself because I like to play by the rules and think the rules should be enforced the way they were written but if I'm wrong in thinking there should be 6 procedurals then I want to know so if I make the same mistake at another match then I will only incur 1 procedural.

Thanks in advance,

Pete

What were the exact words written in the WSB.

That will determine with the decision.

[rupie]

I agree with you one if there is no advantage and one per shot if there is an advantage.

[lugnut]

6. No doubt. I just finished a week end RO class so I'm pretty certain about this.

Edited April 6, 2009 by lugnut

[Jake Di Vita]

6.

Significant advantage = 1 per shot fired.

[PistolPete]

I don't remember what number targets they were but the stage description read similar to:

Starting in box (A) Steel 1-6 must be engaged from box A. T1-6 are taken from the free fire zone, targets T7-9 must be engaged from box B and targets T10-12 must be engaged from box C. Boxes A, B, and C are NOT part of the free fire zone.

How can it not be 6 proceedurals?

[PistolPete]

I don't remember what number targets they were but the stage description read similar to:

Starting in box (A) Steel 1-6 must be engaged from box A. T1-6 are taken from the free fire zone, targets T7-9 must be engaged from box B and targets T10-12 must be engaged from box C. Boxes A, B, and C are NOT part of the free fire zone.

How can it not be 6 proceedurals?

[Nik Habicht]

Assuming that your recollection of the stage procedure is correct, that should be six procedurals......

....pretty weak stage design though.....

[lugnut]

....pretty weak stage design though.....

Why is that? Doesn't seem too uncommon from many matches I've shot.

[PistolPete]

....pretty weak stage design though.....

It was actually a fun stage and overall a great match.

[ima45dv8]

....pretty weak stage design though.....

Why is that? Doesn't seem too uncommon from many matches I've shot.

I'm not Nik, but I think he's implying that with the judicious use of some vision barriers or similar tactic, the shooter could have been physically compelled to move to the three boxes to engage the appropriate targets without needing to be verbally compelled via the WSB.

And it does sound like it should have been 6 procedurals -- significant advantage = 1 per shot fired (where have I seen that before, Jake? ).

[SmittyFL]

....pretty weak stage design though.....

Why is that? Doesn't seem too uncommon from many matches I've shot.

1.1.5

Pretty straight forward.

[Neomet]

Just for my edification can we play this another way? The shooter engages two of the three C box targets from B, has an "Oh Crap" moment and sprints over to C where he engages the final target from C. It would appear that the significant advantage has been removed since the shooter took the time to get to C.

Two procedurals or 4? (My guess is two)

[SmittyFL]

That is the problem with illegal stages....you spend time arguing about what procedural to give.

Whereas with very little effort, a wall or two, a barrel or two or a few no-shoot targets you could have "compelled a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances"

The answer to the question however is whatever they said in the walk-through.

[Carmoney]

Let me give an example of a situation where only one procedural should be assessed. The stage requires you to shoot one-handed while holding a briefcase, with the handle of the briefcase below your beltline. But you inadvertently allow the handle of the briefcase to go a couple inches above your beltline and rattle off six shots.

Now, that clearly violated the instructions and requires a penalty, but obviously it should only be one procedural because no significant competitve advantage was gained.

This is all a purely hypothetical situation of course......

[JThompson]

6 but what the hell... it's an illegal stage anyway.

Level 1 I take it? See applicable rules for long course.

[Nik Habicht]

....pretty weak stage design though.....

Why is that? Doesn't seem too uncommon from many matches I've shot.

Mark and Smitty answered that pretty well. A freestyle game shouldn't have stage descriptions that require shooters to hit three boxes and memorize what to shoot from each one....

....and yes, I've done a little bit of stage designing, building and match directing over the years --- so my perspective is to always see if I can promote improvements in design and execution....

....pretty weak stage design though.....

It was actually a fun stage and overall a great match.

I believe that --- and in no way meant to slight anyone involved in the work of putting on the match. I'm convinced that it's not much harder to build freestyle stages though --- and would like to encourage folks to do just that.

I've shot many a fun stage over the years that may have not been perfectly legal --- heck, at some snow and ice matches no stages were strictly legal, but they were safe and fun.....

[JThompson]

....pretty weak stage design though.....

Why is that? Doesn't seem too uncommon from many matches I've shot.

Mark and Smitty answered that pretty well. A freestyle game shouldn't have stage descriptions that require shooters to hit three boxes and memorize what to shoot from each one....

....and yes, I've done a little bit of stage designing, building and match directing over the years --- so my perspective is to always see if I can promote improvements in design and execution....

....pretty weak stage design though.....

It was actually a fun stage and overall a great match.

I believe that --- and in no way meant to slight anyone involved in the work of putting on the match. I'm convinced that it's not much harder to build freestyle stages though --- and would like to encourage folks to do just that.

I've shot many a fun stage over the years that may have not been perfectly legal --- heck, at some snow and ice matches no stages were strictly legal, but they were safe and fun.....

I agree... whenever possible design so they have to move and your WSB will say, engage as visible. I love those three words.

Edited April 6, 2009 by JThompson

[lugnut]

Well to clarify. This was a level 1 match and it appears to be legal according to 1.1.5.1

[lugnut]

....pretty weak stage design though.....

Why is that? Doesn't seem too uncommon from many matches I've shot.

1.1.5

Pretty straight forward.

Not really. Look at 1.1.5.1

[JThompson]

Well to clarify. This was a level 1 match and it appears to be legal according to 1.1.5.1

Read the entire paragraph...

[ima45dv8]

Not sure what we're looking for, JT.

1.1.5.1 does allow a level I match to create a stage like was described. The stage isn't illegal, but some might still consider it ill-conceived.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a

long course).

I don't mean to seem critical of the stage or those who built it. Sometimes valuable resources like time and manpower are in short supply and we can only do the best we can at the time.

[JThompson]

Not sure what we're looking for, JT.

1.1.5.1 does allow a level I match to create a stage like was described. The stage isn't illegal, but some might still consider it ill-conceived.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a

long course).

I don't mean to seem critical of the stage or those who built it. Sometimes valuable resources like time and manpower are in short supply and we can only do the best we can at the time.

It's a "long course" Hence, you can not dictate boxes or reloads.

Edited April 6, 2009 by JThompson

[lugnut]

Not sure what we're looking for, JT.

1.1.5.1 does allow a level I match to create a stage like was described. The stage isn't illegal, but some might still consider it ill-conceived.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a

long course).

I don't mean to seem critical of the stage or those who built it. Sometimes valuable resources like time and manpower are in short supply and we can only do the best we can at the time.

It's a "long course" Hence, you can not dictate boxes or reloads.

Hmmm... this is getting deep. I read "and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only" as separate from the first part of 1.1.5.1. Maybe I'm just not thinking clearly.

Edited April 6, 2009 by lugnut

[ima45dv8]

There's been some discussion over this rule already, but my search-fu is weak tonight.

There seems to be 2 basic camps on this one --

• One sees the rule as 2 different statements joined by the word "and", as in, 1) you can use shooting boxes and can specify where or
  when specific target arrays may be engaged, and 2) you can specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses, but not in a long course.
  

• The other group sees the 2 statements as one and believes the "long course" restriction applies to all options listed (reloads AND shooting boxes AND specifying targets from those boxes).
  

I've always understood it to be the first, where the "long course" restriction applied only to the mandatory reloads. Maybe one of the travelling RMI's will offer an opinion. Gary? Troy? It might also be good to put the question to John A. for some clarification.