sperman Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I've seen posts on how to build up the grip using epoxy, then coating it with Silicium Carbide (the sand in sandpaper.) I know modifying the grip shape wouldn't be legal for production, but if the epoxy/sand is only applied in the legal area, and only in a thickness equivilant to grip tape, is this legal? I just get tired of trying to get grip tape to lay flat, and replacing it every so often. I tried a search but didn't see anything. If I've missed a thread please point me in that direction. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 My first thought is no. Exopy is permanent. Adding material is changing the stock appearence. Scott, have you used the pre-cut stuff from TruGrip? I don't know how anyone would have bad luck with it. $h!ts great! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) Ok, try this for thought process.... so what if it's "permanent"? So is stippling. Why would be putting glue on your grip (without "building" it up any), and then pouring sand on it, be illegal anymore than grip tape? Isn't that what grip tape is? Glue with sand impregnated in it? And I have coated STI grips with epoxy before, and put grit on it - and later peeled up an edge of the dried epoxy and pulled it all off (not easy, but doable), just like you would old stuck on tape. If Grip tape (sand texture with sticky stuff on it) is legal, and permanenty butchering your grip with a soldering iron is legal, why wouldn't glue and grit texture be legal? To keep the sandpaper grip guys in business? (no offense, I LOVE Trugrip) Appendix D4.21 Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines) •Grips – Internal beveling. Checkering, stippling, and addition of grip tape or grip sleeves. (see Appendix E4) So I argue that a grit and glue job is just home made grip tape. What about the removable rear M&P grip insert - that is replaceable, and would not be permanent if modified. You can change revolver grips in Production.... so..... I know, I now, go ask Amidon. Just gotta love Production. Edited March 19, 2009 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 "If you have a question about whether or not a modification is ALLOWED or PROHIBITED for use in Production division, the correct thing to do is make a request of NROI for an official answer, and then wait for publication for that answer to officially take effect. Without an official, published NROI ruling that specifically authorizes a modification, that modification should be considered PROHIBITED for competition in the Production division. " So literally, if glue and grit is not considered "Grip Tape", it would be illegal under D4.21 I sent an email requesting clarification if glue and grit applied at home could be condidered home made grip tape, and be legal. We'll see. I'm betting against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I sent an email requesting clarification if glue and grit applied at home could be condidered home made grip tape, and be legal. We'll see. I'm betting against. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 I sent an email requesting clarification if glue and grit applied at home could be condidered home made grip tape, and be legal. We'll see. I'm betting against. That was going to be my next step, but I wanted to see if anyone knew of an official opinion before I did it. Thanks. IMHO, it's just another form of stippling, or maybe a hybrid of stippling and grip tape. But my opinion doesn't really count for much, when it comes to USPSA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I sent an email requesting clarification if glue and grit applied at home could be condidered home made grip tape, and be legal. We'll see. I'm betting against. That was going to be my next step, but I wanted to see if anyone knew of an official opinion before I did it. Thanks. IMHO, it's just another form of stippling, or maybe a hybrid of stippling and grip tape. But my opinion doesn't really count for much, when it comes to USPSA rules. Yeah, but I htink the thing that will be the problem is the "that modification should be considered PROHIBITED for competition in the Production division" part.... and the rule only specifically allows "grip tape" and "stippling"... so it comes down to how strictly they define grip tape I guess. Maybe a better word would have been adding "texture" to the grip. Maybe we wil get a favorable ruling. Oh well, we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Yeah, but I htink the thing that will be the problem is the "that modification should be considered PROHIBITED for competition in the Production division" part.... and the rule only specifically allows "grip tape" and "stippling"... so it comes down to how strictly they define grip tape I guess. Maybe a better word would have been adding "texture" to the grip. Maybe we wil get a favorable ruling. Oh well, we'll see. I'm thinking they're now saying (in Production Div) "if we didnt/dont say you can, you can't" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 And they also say to ask for a ruling, if the don't say you can..... again, maybe there will be a positive ruling. Or not. Either way it will be settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I just get tired of trying to get grip tape to lay flat, and replacing it every so often. Does Eric Wesselman produce grip tape for your blaster? If so that should one part of the problem --- the laying flat part..... He's in the dealer's forum.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 I just get tired of trying to get grip tape to lay flat, and replacing it every so often. Does Eric Wesselman produce grip tape for your blaster? If so that should one part of the problem --- the laying flat part..... He's in the dealer's forum.... The grip tapes not that bad. It would just be one less thing to worry about if it went away. I probably should try some of the commercially available options. I'm just one of those "do it yourself" kind of guys. Take another shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I'd love to be able to permanently grip tape my grips. The problem I see with it is the guy that cakes the stuff on making it thick and heavy, and that would cause an issue for everyone. Grip tape has a consistent thickness, adding epoxy and forming the grip wouldn't be, and is not available to every one equally. Seems to me the BoD wants Production to be more so a stock gun division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I would be hesitant to permanently bond sandpaper to my grips. When I change out the tape, is is usually due to it wearing off or "loading up" with dry skin/ dirt/ Prince grip/ etc. I like the idea of being able to dispose of worn abrasive without refinishing my gun again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Batt Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I sent an e-mail to NROI about this around 11 this morning. It looks like a lot of us are thinking alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike cyrwus Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 if it looks like grip tape, and feels like grip tape, then it is grip tape. Really hard to get off grip tape. least thats my story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Some people epoxy on their grip tape, so it won't peel off so easy, I've heard.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Funny this tread pops up, I guess a few of us are thinking alike. Scary???? Last night I sent the following questions to my AD and DNROI: One issue that I do think could be cleared up is in the modifications of grips. 1st, from the strict wording of the interpretations, it appears that grip panels (as found on Berettas, Sigs, Paras, etc) cannot be replaced with aftermarket panels, only "Internal beveling. Checkering, stippling, and addition of grip tape or grip sleeves." Is that the intention that only OEM and no aftermarket grips can be used? Was this considered in the interpretation or was just the stippling/checkering of guns like Glocks and M&Ps considered? Would it be reasonable that aftermarket grip panels with the same size and profile as factory grips be allowable? I find it questionable that aftermarket slides are explicitly allowed but not simple/inexpensive grip panels. 2nd. I know the goal of the interpretations was to get away from things that are "implied" to be allowed, but the interpretations themselves imply (in 21.3a) that it is allowable to refinish a gun with a textured finish in the area allowed in E4 and therefore modify the grip in a way NOT explicitly allowed in D4.21. 3rd. Can "permanent grip tape," such as gluing/epoxying on silica, be allowed? Would this just be a finish application as implied above so long as it meets appendix E4? For a practical example, I use "Burner" grips for my Beretta. They are the same shape/size/profile as OEM grips (even being constructed from modified OEM grips) just with a permanent grip-tape-like texture. My reading of the rules says they are not allowed since they are not OEM... unless it is "implied" that a textured finish is ok in the grip area as shown in E4. (http://www.diamondbacktactical.com/Jerry-Barnharts-Burner-Grips-P1245C121.aspx). -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FUNGUNNER Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I've seen posts on how to build up the grip using epoxy, then coating it with Silicium Carbide (the sand in sandpaper.) I know modifying the grip shape wouldn't be legal for production, but if the epoxy/sand is only applied in the legal area, and only in a thickness equivilant to grip tape, is this legal? I just get tired of trying to get grip tape to lay flat, and replacing it every so often. I tried a search but didn't see anything. If I've missed a thread please point me in that direction. Thanks, I shoot an M&P with aluminum oxide epoxied on the areas allowed by USPSA, as do many other shooters. I have shot that gun at Nationals and several other major matches and there were no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphire Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 And they also say to ask for a ruling, if the don't say you can..... again, maybe there will be a positive ruling. Or not. Either way it will be settled. They also seem to say that if the ruling isn't published in FS or on the USPSA website then the ruling isn't worth the paper it's written on in a challenge or chrono test. 25) I emailed the Director of NROI with a question about a modification, and got back an email that says it is okay. Am I covered? ANSWER: NO. ALL modifications are PROHIBITED in USPSA Production Division unless a specific item in Appendix D4 or a published NROI ruling clearly states that specific modification is allowed for use in USPSA Production Division. I'm looking at having to rebuild my production gun to a different configuration or scrap what I have and buy a new gun when all the smoke clears. And even with all that I'm not going to be able to trust anything unless my specific gun's modifications are all spelled out in plain black and white and published in FS or on the USPSA website. And then next year I have absolutely no confidence that I won't have to do the whole thing all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 And they also say to ask for a ruling, if the don't say you can..... again, maybe there will be a positive ruling. Or not. Either way it will be settled. They also seem to say that if the ruling isn't published in FS or on the USPSA website then the ruling isn't worth the paper it's written on in a challenge or chrono test. 25) I emailed the Director of NROI with a question about a modification, and got back an email that says it is okay. Am I covered? ANSWER: NO. ALL modifications are PROHIBITED in USPSA Production Division unless a specific item in Appendix D4 or a published NROI ruling clearly states that specific modification is allowed for use in USPSA Production Division. I'm looking at having to rebuild my production gun to a different configuration or scrap what I have and buy a new gun when all the smoke clears. And even with all that I'm not going to be able to trust anything unless my specific gun's modifications are all spelled out in plain black and white and published in FS or on the USPSA website. And then next year I have absolutely no confidence that I won't have to do the whole thing all over again. Then just don't modify it, or shoot in Limited 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Good question. Burner grips...making your own grit grip with glue...all that serves the same functionality as grip tape and such. Cool heads should probably prevail and clarify that it's approved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 As of today, my M&P has TruGrip on it nd will til something is published clarifying that glued on grit is the same as grip tape for Production rule purposes. Strictly read, under the new rules/clarifications, anything except grip tape or stippling is illegal. Even if they accomplish the same purpose. Rubbing your grip in peanut butter and sprinkling it with candy sprinkles would also be illegal, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Batt Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I received a reply about this from John yesterday morning. He said that they are planning on taking a look at this question once the rules clarification is approved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 I received a reply about this from John yesterday morning. He said that they are planning on taking a look at this question once the rules clarification is approved. Have you heard anything from JA on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Rubbing your grip in peanut butter and sprinkling it with candy sprinkles would also be illegal, IMHO. MMMM.....Peanut butter and sprinkles.......MMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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