2009 Fort Benning 3 Gun Challenge

[Jim Norman]

Seems that there were at least two places where you could go home.

You had to either empty or safe your SG and place it in a barrel. Some people evidently put the safety on and when placing the gun, either placed it safety down and the safety got knocked orr, or they hit the safety off when they placed it, or maybe tehy just didn't put the safety on, thinking the gun was empty.

The second place was the bucket you put your pistol in. If you tossed your gun in and it hit just so and yoiur safety was mabye a little light in the way it snapped into position, evidently it might have gotten knocked off, or maybe you really didn't quite get the safety on.

It is sad and there is not a really good way around this.

If we insist on an empty weapon, we have people that just might dump rounds in an unsafe manner. DQ, but then we have the subjective of just waht was unsafe.

If we allow the weapon to be bunkered with out the safety, then we have simply the bunkered gun in an unsafe condition. THis CLOULD be OK, if we mandate that the weapons cannot be retrieved until everyone is behind the line (probably should be doing this anyway)

So we mandate the safety be on.

With the pistol (or rifle) it is a bit simpler as we can drop the magazine, reack out the round and drop the hammer on an empty, round in chamer DQ, Empty Gun, good to go.

I for one like two -gun stages better than three gun for the ease of set-up and reset. I'd start most with a loaded rifle, mandate a maximum number of rounds, shoot the gun dry and transition while maintaining a slung rifle. Round in chamber you are done, DQ.

There are some drawbacks to this as well as it is usual to end a stage prone, and not put that into the middle as some of us are getting less able to fight gravity on the clock.

No good answers here, just "Shooter, it is your responsibility to make sure your weapon is either cleared or placed inteh appropriate condition as mandated byu the match rules and stage brief" anything else is not good for the sport. Can't make sure your gun is safed properly and still do the stage in 22 seconds, take 23 or 33 or whatever it takes. it is a lot faster than driving home early.

Jim

[JRW]

No good answers here, just "Shooter, it is your responsibility to make sure your weapon is either cleared or placed in the appropriate condition as mandated by the match rules and stage brief"

I agree with this statement. Obviously safety comes first, but this is no different than any other stage instruction. We mostly have no problem staying within the fault lines, shooting targets in the correct order, etc... This should be part of every shooters stage plan and practice. If you practice putting the weapon on safe when moving, taking your finger off the trigger and clearing a weapon it becomes muscle memory just like a reload or draw. Plus the added benefit of preventing a ND or DQ.

[gose]

No good answers here, just "Shooter, it is your responsibility to make sure your weapon is either cleared or placed in the appropriate condition as mandated by the match rules and stage brief"

I agree with this statement. Obviously safety comes first, but this is no different than any other stage instruction. We mostly have no problem staying within the fault lines, shooting targets in the correct order, etc... This should be part of every shooters stage plan and practice. If you practice putting the weapon on safe when moving, taking your finger off the trigger and clearing a weapon it becomes muscle memory just like a reload or draw. Plus the added benefit of preventing a ND or DQ.

+1

Anyone can spend an extra 0.5s to put down the gun so that it wont slide, or bump the safety off. If you just throw your gun into the grounding box, yes, the safety might come off. I've also seen shooters get DQ'd when trying to empty their guns on the clock, so I dont think that either method is any better/safer than the other one. It's up to the shooter to ground their firearm in a safe way and if the grounding box is constructed in a way that makes you nervous about your gun sliding around, or the safety getting bumped, you just have to spend the extra time to make sure you do it in a safe way.

Edited December 9, 2009 by gose

[abn-rgr]

Stage 7 had me really nervous after watching two guys in the squad ahead of me DQ on the pistol. I run a glock and usually take the time to drop mag and rack slide. Takes me an extra .5, but its worth it for peace of mind. I will usually do the same when grounding my rifle.

[lmccrock]

Stage 7 had me really nervous after watching two guys in the squad ahead of me DQ on the pistol. I run a glock and usually take the time to drop mag and rack slide.

I thought, for purposes of this match, that a Glock could be placed with muzzle in safe direction, and no further action was required. It could be left chambered, since it is "on safe" just sitting there. I shoot a Para, so just asking.

Send out an Email to Sgt. Hampton and to any others that you have an email for, ask them if they'd forward your comments if you don't have a contact.

Would a snail mail letter have more impact? Also, do the AMU guys want to deal with the arrangements? Its the pre-match permissions that seem to be the issue, not the match itself.

Lee

[abn-rgr]

You are correct, but its the way I practice. It will be safe for every 3 gun match I shoot no matter the rules.

[benelli2]

No good answers here, just "Shooter, it is your responsibility to make sure your weapon is either cleared or placed in the appropriate condition as mandated by the match rules and stage brief"

I agree with this statement. Obviously safety comes first, but this is no different than any other stage instruction. We mostly have no problem staying within the fault lines, shooting targets in the correct order, etc... This should be part of every shooters stage plan and practice. If you practice putting the weapon on safe when moving, taking your finger off the trigger and clearing a weapon it becomes muscle memory just like a reload or draw. Plus the added benefit of preventing a ND or DQ.

+1

Anyone can spend an extra 0.5s to put down the gun so that it wont slide, or bump the safety off. If you just throw your gun into the grounding box, yes, the safety might come off. I've also seen shooters get DQ'd when trying to empty their guns on the clock, so I dont think that either method is any better/safer than the other one. It's up to the shooter to ground their firearm in a safe way and if the grounding box is constructed in a way that makes you nervous about your gun sliding around, or the safety getting bumped, you just have to spend the extra time to make sure you do it in a safe way.

What if you take the extra time to be careful and after two of the range staff pick up and handle your gun they inform you your safety was off and you are DQ'ed? though you didn't get to see it before they handled it?

guess you had to be there

[abn-rgr]

I agree that no one should touch the gun until the competitor comes over to retrieve it. The RO should say "show me a safe gun". If the competitor cant, you go home.

[gose]

No good answers here, just "Shooter, it is your responsibility to make sure your weapon is either cleared or placed in the appropriate condition as mandated by the match rules and stage brief"

I agree with this statement. Obviously safety comes first, but this is no different than any other stage instruction. We mostly have no problem staying within the fault lines, shooting targets in the correct order, etc... This should be part of every shooters stage plan and practice. If you practice putting the weapon on safe when moving, taking your finger off the trigger and clearing a weapon it becomes muscle memory just like a reload or draw. Plus the added benefit of preventing a ND or DQ.

+1

Anyone can spend an extra 0.5s to put down the gun so that it wont slide, or bump the safety off. If you just throw your gun into the grounding box, yes, the safety might come off. I've also seen shooters get DQ'd when trying to empty their guns on the clock, so I dont think that either method is any better/safer than the other one. It's up to the shooter to ground their firearm in a safe way and if the grounding box is constructed in a way that makes you nervous about your gun sliding around, or the safety getting bumped, you just have to spend the extra time to make sure you do it in a safe way.

What if you take the extra time to be careful and after two of the range staff pick up and handle your gun they inform you your safety was off and you are DQ'ed? though you didn't get to see it before they handled it?

guess you had to be there

I don't really have a problem with range staff clearing my guns, but getting informed that I was DQ'd without getting to see the gun would have sucked. It looked like they checked the guns on some stages before clearing them, and if it looked like the safety wasn't on, the shooter was called over to see for themselves. There weren't that many DQs, so waiting for the shooter to verify that the gun indeed wasn't safe wouldn't really have delayed the match much.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Stage 7 had me really nervous after watching two guys in the squad ahead of me DQ on the pistol. I run a glock and usually take the time to drop mag and rack slide. Takes me an extra .5, but its worth it for peace of mind. I will usually do the same when grounding my rifle.

+1

It usually doesn't waste any time as you are almost always moving towards the drop location.

[Mike P]

Seems that there were at least two places where you could go home.

You had to either empty or safe your SG and place it in a barrel. Some people evidently put the safety on and when placing the gun, either placed it safety down and the safety got knocked orr, or they hit the safety off when they placed it, or maybe tehy just didn't put the safety on, thinking the gun was empty.

The second place was the bucket you put your pistol in. If you tossed your gun in and it hit just so and yoiur safety was mabye a little light in the way it snapped into position, evidently it might have gotten knocked off, or maybe you really didn't quite get the safety on.

It is sad and there is not a really good way around this.

If we insist on an empty weapon, we have people that just might dump rounds in an unsafe manner. DQ, but then we have the subjective of just waht was unsafe.

If we allow the weapon to be bunkered with out the safety, then we have simply the bunkered gun in an unsafe condition. THis CLOULD be OK, if we mandate that the weapons cannot be retrieved until everyone is behind the line (probably should be doing this anyway)

So we mandate the safety be on.

With the pistol (or rifle) it is a bit simpler as we can drop the magazine, reack out the round and drop the hammer on an empty, round in chamer DQ, Empty Gun, good to go.

I for one like two -gun stages better than three gun for the ease of set-up and reset. I'd start most with a loaded rifle, mandate a maximum number of rounds, shoot the gun dry and transition while maintaining a slung rifle. Round in chamber you are done, DQ.

There are some drawbacks to this as well as it is usual to end a stage prone, and not put that into the middle as some of us are getting less able to fight gravity on the clock.

No good answers here, just "Shooter, it is your responsibility to make sure your weapon is either cleared or placed inteh appropriate condition as mandated byu the match rules and stage brief" anything else is not good for the sport. Can't make sure your gun is safed properly and still do the stage in 22 seconds, take 23 or 33 or whatever it takes. it is a lot faster than driving home early.

Jim

It is indeed the shooter's responsibility to ground the weapon safely and it is also the RO's responsibility to leave it the hell alone (ie. don't touch it) if the safety isn't on. Once someone other than the shooter touches the weapon then they are responsible for its condition IMO.

[00bullitt]

No good answers here, just "Shooter, it is your responsibility to make sure your weapon is either cleared or placed in the appropriate condition as mandated by the match rules and stage brief"

I agree with this statement. Obviously safety comes first, but this is no different than any other stage instruction. We mostly have no problem staying within the fault lines, shooting targets in the correct order, etc... This should be part of every shooters stage plan and practice. If you practice putting the weapon on safe when moving, taking your finger off the trigger and clearing a weapon it becomes muscle memory just like a reload or draw. Plus the added benefit of preventing a ND or DQ.

+1

Anyone can spend an extra 0.5s to put down the gun so that it wont slide, or bump the safety off. If you just throw your gun into the grounding box, yes, the safety might come off. I've also seen shooters get DQ'd when trying to empty their guns on the clock, so I dont think that either method is any better/safer than the other one. It's up to the shooter to ground their firearm in a safe way and if the grounding box is constructed in a way that makes you nervous about your gun sliding around, or the safety getting bumped, you just have to spend the extra time to make sure you do it in a safe way.

What if you take the extra time to be careful and after two of the range staff pick up and handle your gun they inform you your safety was off and you are DQ'ed? though you didn't get to see it before they handled it?

guess you had to be there

I'm not too fond of being told my gun was not safe without being able to visually inspect its resting condition after I left it and before it was handled by someone else. Especially if I were to take the extra time to knowingly engage a safety. I also disagree with a total match DQ for such. If the gun is to be grounded and not create a detriment of safety to anyone.....whats the purpose of a match DQ? Its grounded in a box and in a safe direction. If an RO or anyone else for that matter walk up and see a gun not on safe or cannot see the safety. Put the burden on the shooter to show a safe weapon. Once its touched by someone other than the shooter.....the chance to remove all doubt is gone. It sucks knowing you were shooting the match of your life only to know it was ended by possibly the fault of someone else.

[cripple]

No good answers here, just "Shooter, it is your responsibility to make sure your weapon is either cleared or placed in the appropriate condition as mandated by the match rules and stage brief"

I agree with this statement. Obviously safety comes first, but this is no different than any other stage instruction. We mostly have no problem staying within the fault lines, shooting targets in the correct order, etc... This should be part of every shooters stage plan and practice. If you practice putting the weapon on safe when moving, taking your finger off the trigger and clearing a weapon it becomes muscle memory just like a reload or draw. Plus the added benefit of preventing a ND or DQ.

+1

Anyone can spend an extra 0.5s to put down the gun so that it wont slide, or bump the safety off. If you just throw your gun into the grounding box, yes, the safety might come off. I've also seen shooters get DQ'd when trying to empty their guns on the clock, so I dont think that either method is any better/safer than the other one. It's up to the shooter to ground their firearm in a safe way and if the grounding box is constructed in a way that makes you nervous about your gun sliding around, or the safety getting bumped, you just have to spend the extra time to make sure you do it in a safe way.

What if you take the extra time to be careful and after two of the range staff pick up and handle your gun they inform you your safety was off and you are DQ'ed? though you didn't get to see it before they handled it?

guess you had to be there

I'm not too fond of being told my gun was not safe without being able to visually inspect its resting condition after I left it and before it was handled by someone else. Especially if I were to take the extra time to knowingly engage a safety. I also disagree with a total match DQ for such. If the gun is to be grounded and not create a detriment of safety to anyone.....whats the purpose of a match DQ? Its grounded in a box and in a safe direction. If an RO or anyone else for that matter walk up and see a gun not on safe or cannot see the safety. Put the burden on the shooter to show a safe weapon. Once its touched by someone other than the shooter.....the chance to remove all doubt is gone. It sucks knowing you were shooting the match of your life only to know it was ended by possibly the fault of someone else.

Here is where it gets interesting....what if your gun has a thumb and a palm safety such as a 2011? Would the gun not be 'safe' if the thumb safety had been knocked off, but the obvious palm safety is still active (being safer than guns without one)? In Blake's case the RO saw him engage the thumb safety during the course of fire before placing his gun in the box (and told the MD such), but he was still DQ'd even though the palm safety is operable on his 2011 and his thumb safety knocked off by the bottom of the box. After he finished the entire course of fire and was at the gun table with his AR he was called over to inspect his 2011 and told about the DQ so we don't know if the gun was handled before this time. Hell we were just happy he finished a course of fire in the dark after falling once (without a gun) and being led said course by flashlight!

He learned a good lesson (just wish it wouldn't have been in this match) - to take the time to clear the weapon completely should this situation come up again...or maybe we could see a rule revision (calling for a complete unload of any pistol) or different stage designs where your pistol is last in the course of fire....just my .02..

[springy]

deleted due to lack of.............

Edited December 9, 2009 by springy

[benelli2]

I'm all about safety, as well being a previous match director, range master, club president, competitor, RO, etc, but ..

But in the spirit of constructive critisism i offer the following two points for all matches

Consistency in a match, it needs to be the same for everyone, it doesn't need to be shot by flashlight by some (before daylight) and daylight for others, weapons should not be staged by competitors for some squads and then by the RO's for others, scoring should be done so that competitors can see misses if determined by scorer, not told about it after, RO's shouldn't be changed for the sake of expedience,- I know all these were changed because stage 7 was running behind but that was easy to see was going to happen before the 1st shot, it was fun, as well as all the stages, but way to big to fit a realistic schedule of staging 3 guns, clearing 3 guns, scoring and getting in a parachute harness and shooting some 38 shots, and led to the only controversial stage in the match and the stage with the most DQ's- hmmmmmm

Suprise Stages aren't, unless you have no friends or no ears and can't read lips, I heard all I needed without asking anyone, I didn't know where stuff was but I knew enough to be aware of what to look for. With 250 competitors and pickup trucks on the line, it isn't a club match there are no secrets and everyone is talking all over the range

I have a nice DQ shirt for anyone that wants one in case they ran out and you didn't get yours, I didn't find it very comforting or humorous

probably all I should say- later , great to see everyone, happy holidays

jeff

[Bryan 45]

Geez Jeff, you just shot my self-esteem in the foot. We shot Stage 5 on Saturday afternoon and up till that point, I hadn't heard a word about it. I guess I need to start accepting applications for friends.

[Jim Norman]

Ignoring the grip safety of the 1911 for the moment.

If the 1911 in question has a single side safety as opposed to an ambi and the gun is laid on the left side, can you tell if the safety is on or not without picking it up?

If not, do we now wait the extra 30-60 seconds depending on the stage set-up and where the shooter is etc., to have the shooter pick-up and show the RO that the safety is on?

If the detent is not either worn to a nub or deliberately ground down, the safety really shouldn't come off that easily. As for the SG DQs if the shooter has an extended safety button and a light detent, then there is the requirement that he be more then just aware of his weapons proclivity to have the safety bump off.

In the end it is the shooters responsibility to have a functional weapon system that has working safeties that are not subject to being accidentally flicked off.

I am as is everyone else unhappy to see a DQ for something like this, but the alternatives of reducing the safety rules is such that we can't allow it.

Jim

[Scout454]

Jim - if there is the slightest doubt that a competitors gun has been abandoned in an unsafe condition - then it should NOT be touched by an RO. Just because a competitors weapon has a single sided safety does not make that particular weapon exempt from the above. If the RO can not tell with a glance then it should not be touched.

[Mike P]

Ignoring the grip safety of the 1911 for the moment.

If the 1911 in question has a single side safety as opposed to an ambi and the gun is laid on the left side, can you tell if the safety is on or not without picking it up?

If not, do we now wait the extra 30-60 seconds depending on the stage set-up and where the shooter is etc., to have the shooter pick-up and show the RO that the safety is on?

If the detent is not either worn to a nub or deliberately ground down, the safety really shouldn't come off that easily. As for the SG DQs if the shooter has an extended safety button and a light detent, then there is the requirement that he be more then just aware of his weapons proclivity to have the safety bump off.

In the end it is the shooters responsibility to have a functional weapon system that has working safeties that are not subject to being accidentally flicked off.

I am as is everyone else unhappy to see a DQ for something like this, but the alternatives of reducing the safety rules is such that we can't allow it.

Jim

I'm not sure which safety rule would be "reduced" by leaving the gun in question to be cleared by the shooter. If it takes 30 seconds or 60 seconds, it doesn't matter. Handling a firearm that is going to result in a match DQ before the shooter can see and clear it themselves is just wrong. This whole discussion could have been avoided if the RO would have left the gun alone and let the competitor clear it. It may have still been a DQ, but without the uncertainty.

It seemed to work pretty well everywhere else.

[Jim Norman]

The RO looks at the gun and can't tell, he picks it up CAREFULLY and looks, Safety on, Good, off, Sorry, DQ. No different than a 180 break. If you think the RO is not up to the job, then we need a new RO.

On the other hand, what if we ask the shooter to return to the dump zone and pick up his gun, can we be sure that he doesn't flick the safety on if he found it off?

If we think the shooter is doing this can we prove it and then he gets a DQ for unsportsmanlike. What if the RO 'THINKS' he saw the shooter put the safey on when he retrieved his gun?

There is no 100% answer.

Jim

[00bullitt]

Ok.....well suppose there is another assistant to the RO on the stage and he walks by and picks up the gun and then places it back into the abandonment box not ever looking to see if the safety was on. Then the RO walks over and picks it up and sees the safety off. There needs to be no doubt about DQing a shooter. And in a situation like this.....there is plenty of doubt. Burden should be on the shooter...not the RO.

[Scout454]

Wrong Jim. You do precisely what we did Friday. The clipboard glanced at the handgun as the shooter was clearing the rifle. The RO and the shooter advanced to the handgun. If the handgun was obviously on safe he/she was instructed to retrieve the handgun, ULSC and holster. If the condition was questionable or if the handgun had an ambi and was obviously off safe the shooter was instructed to retrieve the handgun and ULSC. If the weapon was off safe and there was a round in the chamber the shooter was DQ'd. If the handgun was on safe or the chamber was clear the shooter re-holstered. Ten seconds per shooter and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

There is a need to clear shooters weapons. It is done at most major matches. The question arises when a weapon *may* have been left in an unsafe condition. If there is a question - especially one in which the shooter will be DQ'd - then let the shooter see it.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Scout454

[FLG8R]

Great Match and some great memories. Thanks to the AMU, Linda, Ft Benning staff for all the effort. With all this talk about DQ's, I was wondering what were some of the other reasons people had to "leave early". From the above posts, pistol boxes can be an area of concern, shotgun safeties, anything else? Any dropped holstered pitols?, 180 degree issues, AD's at this match we have not heard about yet? Would like to know to be better aware....

[uumikew]

Squad 14 had an "almost" AD DQ. One of the shooters on the squad had his Saiga SG AD when he went off safe. Fortunately for him the shot hit just past the needed distance for a AD to be turned into a DQ. He did run the rest of the match starting at Cruiser Ready for that gun. This was on stage 7 also.

Great match even if I didn't shoot very well. Let's hope for Match #6 in 2010!

Great Match and some great memories. Thanks to the AMU, Linda, Ft Benning staff for all the effort. With all this talk about DQ's, I was wondering what were some of the other reasons people had to "leave early". From the above posts, pistol boxes can be an area of concern, shotgun safeties, anything else? Any dropped holstered pitols?, 180 degree issues, AD's at this match we have not heard about yet? Would like to know to be better aware....

[BigHamp]

Duplicate

Edited December 10, 2009 by BigHamp