Demonstrating as a trainer

[kgunz11]

The NRA does not advocate their Instructors doing live fire demo's, but the NRA is not teaching marksmanship skills as much as they are technique and gun safety which can be done using the students as examples.

[Jake Di Vita]

Well said Jim.

[dvc40jim]

Well thank you Sir.

It does amaze me though. All of last year I worked for the Army in a LE Marksman/Observer program. Lots of shooting for the students and each of the Instructors ran a 4 man team for the week of shooting drills and evaluations.

I always made every effort to shoot each of the drills with the student rifles. In my mind it allowed me to ensure that they were seeing what they should see and the rifle was correctly zeroed, and it allowed them to see that the standard was not out of reach. This particular course typically sees about a 40% attrition rate so nerves run pretty high anyway. Sometimes I would throw a wild shot... but I called it for what it was and let it serve as a learning point.

My Team Leader at the time didn't always agree. Part of the reason is that he didn't feel as confident in his abilities or that of a couple of the other instructors. All great Instructors but a missing out on the chance to become and produce even better students.

As a Drill Sergeant with platoons of roughly 60-65 Soldiers I made every effort to shoot each and every rifle in the 2 week Basic Rifle Marksmanship block. Served as a check of the rifle itself and a confidence builder for the Soldiers. Some guys would not do that, and some guys could not do that. I always figured that if I goofed and missed in front of the Soldiers that worst case, they see that a Drill Sergeant is not super human.

In all of the classes that I teach I shoot roughly half the round count as the students. Sometimes with their guns, sometimes with mine but always with the same type of gun that the class is centered around. If it's a LE class I don't break out the Kodiak limited gun (I use my APS enhanced Glock), I try and demonstrate the basics to the students. I believe that most new shooters or basic mission shooters have learned what they learned by osmosis and most of that coming from TV and movies.

I think that if organizations and agencies would fall back to a position that required the trainers to demonstrate the same level of proficiency as they demand from the students the learning shooting community would be far better served.

[Pat Miles]

Jim,

I completely agree with your opinions that the instructor should shoot class demos. When aa instructor refuses to shoot demos the "thirsty" student lose a bit of respect and belief in the instructor. The instructor becomes a talking head. With the demos respect is earned and the ability to perform what is being taught is proven. Yes flyers happen but admitting them shows that the instructor is human and can accept mistakes then suck it up and go back and prove his abilities.

CYa,

Pat

[Steven Cline]

Demonstrate.

Nothing bad comes from it. Great shooters having a bad day eclipse average shooters on their best day.

Demonstrating a few time, not showing off, will head off any upstarts.

Good shooters will recognize your skill and be more attentive.

IMHO

Edited August 31, 2009 by Steven Cline

[Aristotle]

This past weekend, someone from my home club was offering a "CPL practice" opening up our action bays to new shooters, or shooters that otherwise would not have an opportunity shooting "dynamic". The host asked me to host a bay to get would be interested shooters into competitive shooting, and then maybe do a live demo. I guess I misunderstood it to being, set up a bay, and maybe shoot it once or twice with some of the shooters that end up in the bay to shoot the COF. After the introduction of the course he then announces we will ALL be going to bay 1 for a live fire demonstration by Aristotle. WOAH! lol

So after we crammed all 50-60 shooters into the bay, I rattled on about the key safety elements to shooting a stage, yada yada, then came the live fire. I decided to shoot the stage at 50-60% as not to encourage them pushing themselves beyond their skillset, as well as not look too much like an idiot. The COF was 3 PP at 12 yards from behind a barricade, then shooting on the move advancing, from behind low cover, then retreating, and making my way to the final shooting location and engagine 3 more targets from a port.

I sort of made up the COF on the spot, and then had to make sure I acutally shot it as I called it live. I made it through okay. In the end because I am a "unknown" I noticed it did help some of the shooters understand my capabilities and they seemed to cling more to my advise when I ran them through the COF and gave them tips along the way.

I am not an instructor, have no real interest in doing so, but I won't pass up an opportunity to getting new shooters involved.

[RufDog]

Well said Jim.

[tnpyeron3]

I wish I had seen this topic earlier.

When I was instructing, shooting an instructor demo was part of the basic lesson plan for each course of fire.

Every instructor did it, some shot it great, some didn't. Such as life.

The lead instructor would explain the course of fire, while the assistant shot the course.

What I noticed is that every single recruit (student) never watched the shooter, they always watched the target!

This would drive me crazy. The idea of the demo was to learn the technique, to learn the positions, to understand the course of fire.

If you are letting the student watch the target, it defeats the purpose of a demo.

I've shot demos in front of hundreds of people, and as an instructor, I have no problem doing so.

But I believe the demo should be set up so the student can't see the target until the demo is done.

Their focus should be on the shooter and how they shoot the weapon and course.

Now, if you are shooting a demo for non shooters (like dignitaries, or someone of the like) then you should be showing off.

You should have the best performer available and your target should be the only focus.

[bigstick0000]

The students will have more respect and you will have their attention if you are able to show them that you can walk the walk. I have seen instructors that won't demonstrate a technique because they lack the skills. Very counter productive.

[Team Amish 1]

I do believe that worrying about losing face in front of students is unnecessary, unless the teacher really cannot be sure of his own skill set.

Then again, other than for entertainment or reassurance, which drill actually requires showing by doing, i.e. pulling the trigger?

Cannot think of one right now.

The only one I can think of is kind of a bad example: squeezing the trigger with student's finger on the trigger so he gets a feel for right trigger pull.

Other than that, even though I think it's great for illustration, showing by doing is not necessary. Am I wrong?

[G-ManBart]

I guess I'm yet another person that wishes they'd seen this thread earlier!

I think we need to realize that we're talking about multiple levels of instruction here. On one end we're talking about new recruits going through an academy, in the middle are folks taking a CCW course or an NRA Basic Pistol course and on the other end we're talking about folks taking a USPSA/IDPA specific class intended to develop skills to a much higher level than the others.

In some of the above scenarios dry fire or using a student to demonstrate is the appropriate tool for the job. In others, live fire might be the appropriate tool. It's simply a matter of using the right tool for the job at hand.

At our academy we use an instructor to dry fire or simulate the various tasks/skills we want the students to learn. We also give each of them a CD with video clips of each skill so they can practice them after hours. We want the students to see how the draw is a set of steps performed one after the other, or how a reload is done properly, but we want that image to be absolutely perfect. For this, the instructor is key and they'd better darned well be able to do it perfectly. Live fire demonstrations are rare, but not prohibited or forbidden.

One thing I've noticed is very telling. When we see a trainee that may be having gun zero issues one of the instructors will take that weapon, go to the end of the line and shoot it. I can tell you that in every case, all of the trainees that are able to seem to watch what happens when that instructor shoots. They all want to see a nice tight group, see a sight correction and then another tight group closer to where we want it. I can't count how many times I've seen an instructor pop three rounds dead center and all the trainees say "it's not the gun". That removes any doubt for the student who's gun it is, and it removes any doubt other trainees might have whether the instructor really can walk the walk.

In a different setting I've had a small group, or an individual, working through a scenario and someone will say "how fast can YOU do it". That's when I'll demonstrate with live fire, but only enough so that they realize what's possible and what's BS. It's hard to do something like two A's at a .20 split or faster and then a hard transition to a popper without live fire. Sure, I can dry fire it for them, but they're not going to see the results and know it's totally doable with practice. In that case you'd better be ready, willing, and able to go live fire and do it on demand.

Sometimes I'll demonstrate something that isn't entirely by the book. For example, I was trying to get across the concept that a good trigger press with the sights aligned works pretty much regardless of the position of the gun (think lying flat on your back). This was because the student felt they were having grip issues. I took their gun, held it at about a 90* angle, with about half of my fingers, and put a couple of shots in the center, nearly touching at 10yds or so. That made it clear to the student that the "grip issue" wasn't what they needed to worry about. Not much else would have been able to let the student accept it so readily. In a similar fashion, I've seen an instructor shoot a great group at 20yds while intentionally moving the gun around (but keeping the sights aligned). This proved that sight alignment is more important than sight picture. I can't think of another way that would have made it so clear to the students. They all said "well, I can hold it a lot steadier than that, so I'll be fine".....and they were.

Use the right tool for the job, be ready to demonstrate where appropriate and rather than show off, show them what they can learn to do if they're willing to work at it. R,

Edited December 16, 2009 by G-ManBart

[Duane Thomas]

Other than that, even though I think it's great for illustration, showing by doing is not necessary. Am I wrong?

Yes.

[Aristotle]

I've been called on the spot a few times when conducting a safety check for USPSA during a live fire exercise. A few cases, I felt the shooters genuinely wanted to see it "done correctly". But there was a case where I felt it was a "call out", and I was happy to oblige.

I don't blame that shooter, I have the same approach when finding training. I want to know the trainer can "walk the walk". I think it was Lee Trevino that said he has never had a Coach, because none of them could ever beat him.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Aristotle

[juan]

I was a weapons instructor for MARINE SECURITY FORCES. Instructors allways demo the drill.

if the student was better than the instructor possible for him to become a instructor.

Thats how I did it.

[RufDog]

The non-demo instructors are kind of like those guys you meet that claim to have been military in some bad a$$ unit. The more you talk to them and the more specific YOU get they more evasive they become.

[abn-rgr]

I will always do a live fire for my students, especially if someone "calls" me out. I dont have heartburn over a student shooting better than me. It makes me feel good about my techniques I taught them. This is from 20 years training soldiers and civvies.

[want2race]

Wow, great topic that has pretty much been beaten to death. Good read.

I'll throw my name in the hat with the other instructors. With my security students, most are not shooters but are there to learn in accordance with the job standards. They sometimes NEED to see it done. I shoot it slow and focus on perfect technique. I've had to squeeze their triggers to prove it's not their sights, it's their trigger finger pulling shots. They hold the gun, I press the trigger. It really gets the point across. Same with some movement drills. They need to HEAR the gun going off to 'get it'.

[kgunz11]

The non-demo instructors are kind of like those guys you meet that claim to have been military in some bad a$ unit. The more you talk to them and the more specific YOU get they more evasive they become.

Or of course they could be NRA Certified Instructors which are not allowed to "live fire demo".

[HuskySig]

The non-demo instructors are kind of like those guys you meet that claim to have been military in some bad a$ unit. The more you talk to them and the more specific YOU get they more evasive they become.

Or of course they could be NRA Certified Instructors which are not allowed to "live fire demo".

Or say the word "Weapon."

[kgunz11]

We had to put a $ in the pig every time we used that word!

[kevin c]

The only shooting instruction I do regularly is in our club's essentially free Safe Competitor Intro course, required of all new action shooters who are not USPSA classified or known to us through our sister clubs. These are people, some of whom have never taken even a single step with a loaded gun in hand, who want to run and gun.

Part of the presentation is video of some of our club's master and grand master shooters (I am emphatically not one such), to show folks what can be done, after much dedicated practice (this last is stressed). Most everybody is impressed. When introducing myself as the instructor, I tell them I am a slightly above average shooter (I shoot A/B class scores) who still considers himself a student of the sport.

When we do the live fire drills, I do demo each one once, at reduced speed. I also demo the simplified COF we do at the end of the day, again at reduced speed. I feel this is a visual reinforcement and reference point for the basic skills that these folks need to learn and do safely. I use my G17 w/o the trimmings except the internals.

Seems to work. I haven't embarrassed the club, haven't been called out, and the students are eager to come back to shoot.

Perhaps an unusual situation - I don't have to compete for students (they HAVE to take the course from one of the 4 or 5 instructors), they aren't paying for my expertise, they are motivated already by what they've already seen on the range beforehand, and they know I am not the top dog. I also am not trying to show them how to do it better, I'm just trying to show them how to do it in the first place, and safely.

ETA: I should add this. I also shoot because it's the only shooting I'll get to do that day, and I can barely stand it to be at the range and not shoot at all.

Edited December 17, 2009 by kevin c

[Matt Griffin]

I don't know that I have anything valuable to add, but if you shoot a drill in any way, and say "Okay, I let one get away from me on that run." And there's one flier, you have my respect. Nobody is perfect all the time, it's a matter of being in control. In the shooting game, that means you know where your shots went, even when they didn't go where you wanted.

H.

[dvc40jim]

As the majority of our Instructors (day job) are also NRA Instructors what reference can we look at that says we are not allowed to demo live fire? None of us have heard that, or experienced an outright denial... but likewise none of us have seen a NRA class where the Instructor actually demo'd.

[kgunz11]

Jim,

I have contacted my NRA Master Trainer Counselor and asked him where where I might find that info. He is the highest level of NRA certified Trainer/Instructors and there are only 4 others with his status in the world. He's been at it for a long time so when he taught me that I did not question it. You could always contact the NRA directly.

[dvc40jim]

Cool, Thanks. We have to demonstrate a majority of our live fire drills in Basic SWAT course, just the way the Army likes to do things, and most of us believe we should and believe it serves a good purpose, but it's always good to here the justification for things not done like we elect to do them.