Duane Thomas Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 An axiom is a universally recognized or self-evident truth. I am saying that the fact an instructor chooses to demonstrate shooting technique live fire does not automatically equate to showing off, an expression of ego, or something that will "tear down a class." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Duane, studies show that 85% of people are practical learners. They learn from doing something, not seeing it done. That is why the practical portion of the lesson is so critical. I can show you how to completely disassemble and reassemble an M1Garand, but until I put it in your hands and let you do it for yourself with instruction, the teaching has little value for most people. I am NOT saying the instructor should not shoot or offer a demonstration for the students, I'm saying it might not be totally necessary and has little or nothing to do with the instructors own personal skill level. I remember an old adage "those that can't do, teach." Yet I don't totally understand all that. Much to so few words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Well, any time I hear "studies show," I'm really impressed with any study, or group of studies, that's surveyed every person on Earth, thus to know that "85 percent of people are....anything." (As Mark Twain said, ""There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.") But even if that's true, what about the other 15 percent? Should we just ignore them, because "85 percent of people...." I remember an old adage "those that can't do, teach." Yet I don't totally understand all that. Much to so few words. But if someone shows you they can do, you don't have to worry that they can only teach. Yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Well maybe they have not tested every single person on Earth, but of those tested, that's the result. Most of us learn how to do something from kinesthetics. I had an Algebra teacher that couldn't do much on a chalk board, but she could wave that red pen like a magic wand, so I never questioned her abilities. I agree with your stance on an instructor not shooting because they think they may be having a bad day. I also feel that I don't have to live fire every drill on the range typically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 BTW, Max nor Travis had to shoot very much in the recent class I had with them, but I sure enjoyed watching what shooting they did. It shows me that shooting to that level is obtainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Watching those who are very good at what they do perform is a joy. I agree very much about the value of having it demonstrated that such a skill level is attainable. It's infinitely easier to achieve a particular skill level yourself after you've seen it's possible than to chart new levels of skill yourself. That's why people like Robbie and Brian who can jump to entirely new levels of performance within a particular sport are heroes. For the rest of us, on the other hand, the old "Seeing is believing" adage is very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Actually good instructors ask their students about preferred learning styles; excellent instructors assess their students for preferred learning styles and then tailor the instruction to that style..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pittbug Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I find it difficult to learn from hearing or reading something, I need to see it and copy it. When I took a class with Scott Warren, he would shoot every now and then to demonstrate a technique. Each time I would watch his every move. How he prepared, his body position, his head position, how he moved his arms, what he did once he finished the string etc. Being told how to do a technique can only usually describe just a few elements of the overall sequence of minute movements needed to complete the task. The instructor only has so much time to describe a technique and probably won't go into all the minute details of movements and timings. So by watching, you can pick up on all of the unsaid things. Being fairly new to the sport, I want to be wowed. I want to see a champion running at 100%, so I know what that looks like. You just can't get that from hearing or reading something. Even videos/dvds are only so good, I have to see/experience it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Actually good instructors ask their students about preferred learning styles When I first became a firearms instructor, I had in mind an article I had read, years before, on firearms instruction in which the author wrote, "If the instructor fires more than about half a dozen shots in the class, they're probably showing off." I though, "Whoa....profound." So I never shot during the classes, I just told the students what to do, let them do it, critiqued as necessary. Then I had the guy who owned the range tell me, "Part of what people are paying for is to watch the instructor shoot. If you don't do that, you're really shorting them." But I still didn't want to be one of those showoff firearms instructors, so I made a point of asking every student, "Do you want me to just tell you what to do, or would you rather watch me shoot and demo everything first?" Eventually I got away from even asking that question, because over a period of months every single student said, "I want to see you shoot first." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If you think demonstrating is a bad idea - read "The Inner Game of Tennis." Actually, read it anyway, but he specifically hits on that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) There is a definite advantage to being able to show your students, right in front of them, how a technique should look, whether used in drills or on a course of fire. Pictures are nice, Videos are also good, but an up close demonstration can make those few who aren't getting it "click into place". Now, having the class stand 30 feet behind the line to watch your back, and then showing them a good looking target at the end? To me that isn't a demo. They need to be closer, and off to the sides so they can watch what is going on. They need more to look at than peeking over your shoulder to see the target. In fact, if they are on the sides looking in, other instructors can see if they are really paying attention to you , or watching your bullet holes appear in the target Edited March 30, 2009 by RobMoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Guys, you can show your students how to do those things with dry fire. The OP asked if live fire was needed. You can SHOW someone how to do something without firing a shot. And they can watch it, every move, and mimic that, without you ever firing a shot, and do it from a close visual and audible vantage point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrane98 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I'm trying to think of any technique that actually requires pulling the trigger to be demonstrated. A student cannot see through the instructor's eyes, he can't feel the instructor's trigger finger or grip pressure. A full speed demonstration would only serve to satisfy a student's argument that "It can't be done that way" or perhaps, "This way is better." But if he's there to argue, he's not there to learn anyway. Every technique has fuzzy edges. Few are set in stone. I agree that at the end of a course I would like to be able to see the instructor be able to say, "If you use the techniques I have taught you and you correctly practice them through thousands of repetitions, you can do at least this." BAM BAM BAM. Now, having said that, our LEO trainer was a retired FBI agent who likely forgot more about shooting than most of us in his class would ever know. He wasn't OMG fast anymore, this was before gun games anyway, but you certainly didn't want to blame your sights or gun for misses. He would take it and promptly remove the X from the target for you. So much for that excuse. But my point is, we trusted his knowledge and experience, he didn't have to prove anything to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) ...My range master for our dept. tells me that I cannot show the students how to shoot the qualification by live fire. The rule is that no instuctors will shoot in front of the students. They are doing this so in case you have a bad day and don't shoot well, you will not loose the respect of the students. Also, he said you don't need to be a good shooter to be able to teach it, and you are there to teach. ... What are your thoughts? Should instructors not live fire in front of students? You might not need to be a great shooter to teach, but you certainly need to be a competent shooter. I'd say if you aren't confident enough to stand up in front of a bunch of students and demonstrate good technique with live fire you need to be taking the class, not teaching it. Granted, you might have a hiccup or a malfunction - that's part of being human. But if you know your technique well enough to be teaching, you'll recover, use the mistake as a teaching tool, and then demonstrate the correct way. For about 15 years, I paid a big portion of my rent playing music, and for a couple of years, I taught a class at Memphis State. I cannot imagine teaching that class without playing in front of the class to demonstrate proper technique and tone, and to give them a bar to measure their own progress. I'll be honest - there were times that I hit the occasional wrong note, or had a head cold and didn't have great tone, or made other mistakes. That's just part of life. But I never lost the respect of my students, because I used those mistakes as tools to show what could go wrong, and how to recover from a mistake. I've taken a couple of classes (Chapman Academy and CCW), and my instuctors always demonstrated with live fire. I considered it a big plus to be able to study someone doing it right. By a similar token, I can't begin to measure how much I've learned from watching good shooters in classes, at matches, and on television. Its one thing for someone to explain "this is how you do it", but actually seeing it done really helps with those "light bulb moments." Edited March 30, 2009 by bbbean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Bullshit. When I have a bad day and some of my great students beat me there is nothing better, for them or me! You want to talk about bragging rights for your personnel...... +100 Whenever I had a student who could perform at my level, it was a great thing for both of us. He got to strut around like a banty cock rooster and I got the satisfaction of knowing my students were kicking a$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Dry fire doesn't demonstrate what proper follow through looks like. You can show them your hands all you want, but until they see the gun flip right back into place immediately following a LIVE shot, some just don't get it. There are other benefits as well, but that is the first one that came to mind. No reason not to demonstrate. No time? Find it, its there somewhere. No good enough? Get better. Don't want to look like a show-off? Don't show off. An impressive performance doesn't have to equate to showing off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 When I'm teaching a class, sometimes I demonstrate the drill live fire, sometimes not. I usually shoot the drill around 70% speed as to not encourage the students to try to go too fast. Usually someone asks to see how fast it can really be done, but I try to do that at the end of the drill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Guys, you can show your students how to do those things with dry fire. The OP asked if live fire was needed. You can SHOW someone how to do something without firing a shot. And they can watch it, every move, and mimic that, without you ever firing a shot, and do it from a close visual and audible vantage point. However in shooting we have this really cool concept called a target that shows us the instructor can do more than talk and pose, that the techniques are actually capable of putting the bullet holes where they need to go. This, actually, I've always thought is one of the great things about firearms instruction. The instructor can tell you that a certain technique works, but unless he can then put the bullet holes close to each other on the targets in a reasonably short amount of time, you know he's full of hot air - or something more organic. It's like a built-in BS detector. Of course, the instructor can get around that by never actually shooting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 However in shooting we have this really cool concept called a target that shows us the instructor can do more than talk and pose, that the techniques are actually capable of putting the bullet holes where they need to go. I guess everyone has their own thoughts. The largest recognized training group in the world encourages their instructors not to shoot. It is the only group Nationally recognized. As a part of that group, I'll try and do as much teaching as possible without having to demonstrate with live fire. I don't have to prove my abilities for the instruction to be of value, then again, I am not teaching advanced technique, just basic pistol. The first 2 live fire drills are shot on targets with no bullseye or aiming point, just a blank target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I always demo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan W Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I think demonstrating stuff for students is a very positive thing. It doesn’t take much time, it gives the students an idea of what doing it right looks like, and it gives them an idea of what is possible with their firearm. showing them what is possible is a great point. I have taught several LE instructor courses and my fair share of firearms programs in the past 23 years. I don't think there was ever a course that I taught were some demonstration wasnt a part of the program. The first thing that came to my mind when I read the OPs post is that the guy who told him this rule was probably in need of a good shooting demo to show him what is possible...then sent home with a training plan and tested at a later date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Theres no "Need" for the instructor to shoot. If someone is in the class and they feel that they will not listen to the instructors teachings unless he/she"Proves themselves" I respectfully submit that this person should have done their homework and checking BEFORE the class started. Maybe they would have saved a couple dollars and travel expenses. Most training orgs have bios for their instructors available either posted online or upon request. If that bio is not good enough then why go to the class? WHat if its someone realy good like our host and hes asked to demo something and just has a bad day and misses...should we all then file out asking for our money back? For me its always been the philosophy that I can always learn SOMETHING in a class. Even if its one thing in a week then I learned something I did not know before. When I met Gunny Hathcock he was suffering from the disease that eventually took his life. Should I not have listened to him because he could no longer shoot or demo techniques like he used to be able to? Someone challenging the instructor to shoot is just excercising their own ego. These are the same students that will research a subject the night before to ask a question in front of the class covering some arcane bit of knowledge hoping to "catch" the instructor thereby elevating themselves....they fail to realize that most of the class thinks that by doing this he/she has just revealed what an a-hole he/she really is. This person needs to go out back and flush out their headgear. Students should do 3 things: 1. Go to the class, try the techniques the way the instructor wants them done. 2. Check your ego at the door to the classroom. 3. Take away that which works for you and leave the rest. JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 (edited) If an instructor teaches a technical, hands-on class and wants to gain the respect of a class he will demonstrate his skills. The instructor will nip a lot heresay and students will be more attentive, hoping to possibly better the instructor. I challenge all of my guys to beat me and actually find a great amount of joy in the doing of it. The student gains respect for the instructor because he knows that you have unselfishly shared your knowledge and skill with him and also sees that you take great pride in the loss. Edited April 8, 2009 by Huckleberry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabbys44 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I am teaching a handgun class as a LE Firearms Instructor. We are training this year with the rest of the county and two nearby towns. It gives us more flexibility and less overtime if we do it as a group.My range master for our dept. tells me that I cannot show the students how to shoot the qualification by live fire. The rule is that no instuctors will shoot in front of the students. They are doing this so in case you have a bad day and don't shoot well, you will not loose the respect of the students. Also, he said you don't need to be a good shooter to be able to teach it, and you are there to teach. I agree that in pro sports, like golf, basketball and skiing, the best teachers are not always the best athletes, otherwise they would be out there making the big bucks and not just teaching the pros. But....In shooting, I believe you need to be able to demonstrate the proper techniques and should be able to shoot well, but not necessarily be the best shooter. At our last trainers training, there were some instructors who could not group their shots at 10 yards. But, the worst shooter had a new gun. What are your thoughts? Should instructors not live fire in front of students? Randy As an instructor, one must be able to perform, on demand, anything asked of the students. I've heard this lame excuse bandied about before and it still smells like crap. It is policy where I teach that all instructors must be able to demonstrate ANY/ALL techniques taught at any time. I am never asked beforehand if I want to do a demo. I simply DO IT. How can anyone teach something well if they cannot not actually do whatever it is that they are teaching? Bottom line, IMHO, is that instructors should always live fire in front of their class, if only to simply demonstrate the proper techniques in use! That should preclude any mall ninjas from reading an article in a gun magazine and calling himself a trainer. I apologize if I offend anyone, but at 10 yards, you should be able to pick which eye you are going to place the round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabbys44 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 What are your thoughts? Should instructors not live fire in front of students?Randy If you can't shoot it might be a good idea. If you can shoot, there is no need to shoot to impress, just shoot well with your ability to demonstrate proper technique, not to show off. If you can't shoot, maybe you should learn how BEFORE you try to teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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