.223 reloading problems

[brent j]

I am trying to figure out why my .223 reloads are not chambering properly. First I must say I have ruled out everything so it comes down to something I am doing wrong in my re-loads. The gun (Bushmaster M4) is totally clean and lubricated so that is not the issue. I bought some Fiocchi .223 55 grain ammo to rule out the gun itself. I went to the range this morning and started with my reloads. After pulling the charging handle for the first round it shoots no problem but the next round does not chamber.The bolt comes forward and slams into the shoulder of the case denting it before it has a chance to chamber. This happens over and over again. First one shoots after me pulling the charing handle next one jamed. So I took the same magazine to rule that out as well and loaded the Fiocchi ammo into it. Fired all 50 no problem. Took the same magazine and put my reloads in. Same jam problem. It also started ejecting the shell but the bolt would stay closed after the firing and not blow back far enough to push the next round in. I also put in just one reload round, charge it and after I shot the round the shell extracted but the bolt did not blow back and stay in the locked position as it should, it just stayed closed. With the Fiocchi ammo the bolt locked back when the last round was fired as it should. I know it is my reload. I am using H4198 at 19.5 grains with 55 grain ammo. It seems it is an issue of not enough powder to blow the bolt all the way back but that is the recommended ammount. What am I doing wrong????

Edited March 1, 2009 by brent j

[MemphisMechanic]

Three initial questions:

How long are your cases - are you trimming your brass?

Do you own (and DID YOU USE) a case gauge to check your ammo?

Are you using a reloading manual to come up with your bullet/charge weight combination - Where did you get the information you used to work these rounds up?

Answer those, and we'll see if we can help. Oh, what brand/headstamp brass did you use? (Was it mil 5.56 or civvy .223 stuff?)

Edited March 1, 2009 by MemphisMechanic

[brent j]

Three initial questions:

How long are your cases - are you trimming your brass?

Do you own (and DID YOU USE) a case gauge to check your ammo?

Are you using a reloading manual to come up with your bullet/charge weight combination - Where did you get the information you used to work these rounds up?

Answer those, and we'll see if we can help. Oh, what brand/headstamp brass did you use? (Was it mil 5.56 or civvy .223 stuff?)

Thanks for starting to answer my question

The cases after resizing are 1.756

They have only been fired once so I have not trimed them yet. Post firing they did not extend past the case gauge.

I have a Dillon Case gauge and used it on every one of these re-loads. Fit every time after I reloaded them and checked

I have a Lymans manual and the 2008 Hodgon guide which is what I used for this reload. They recommend a charge of 19-21 gr for h-4198.

The brands of brass are Rem and Winchester .223. No mil brass.

Could it be the lack of trimming? Like I said I did not think they needed it yet. After the re-size they are still under the max oal in the Lymans guide. I am new to reloading .223. So far I loaded these just the first time when the brass was new and since I started the re-loads after the first firing I am having this problem. No problem before when they were new.

[h2osport]

I would check for pressure sign and add more powder. Run your powder up in maybe .3 grains and see if this helps. In a gas gun you need the gas to run the bolt as well as push the bullet. I think you will be surprised by the amount of change of .2 grains. I would run the charge up in increments until you reach recommended max or you show signs of pressure.

Make sure you check your brass for signs of pressure at each charge.

[Triggerbender]

IF IMR 4198 is the same as H 4198 I don't know.

Sierra says 19.7 to 21.8 for the IMR 4198 for the AR15 with a 55gr. bullet, they give separate loads for Bolt & AR in .223 (hotter for the AR's gas system).

Sounds like it is short stroking if everything else is in order.

Bump up the charge a grain or so see if it cycles watching for pressure signs.

[brent j]

IF IMR 4198 is the same as H 4198 I don't know.

Sierra says 19.7 to 21.8 for the IMR 4198 for the AR15 with a 55gr. bullet, they give separate loads for Bolt & AR in .223 (hotter for the AR's gas system).

Sounds like it is short stroking if everything else is in order.

Bump up the charge a grain or so see if it cycles watching for pressure signs.

It is Hodgdons 4198. One thing I was considering was the trimming aspect of the processs. I have not trimmed the. I remember when the cases were new the powder filled all the way to the base of the neck and was visible without havng to pull the brass out and look inside. Now it is much further down inside the body of the case and has to be removed from the shell plate and looked into to see. Could the lack of trimming/the excess space in the cartridge be causing not enough of a pressure build up when the bullet is fired thereby causing a lack of gas being creating to cycle the gun?

[Triggerbender]

1.760 after trimming is the max length, you should trim shorter. You said yours were 1.756 which is good.

Check and double check your charge weights use a good scale or two.

Until you get consistent with your set up I would measure round and keep adjusting until right.

You have to know exactly how much powder you are loading and if your machine or powder drop is consistent.

What you are saying about the powder makes it sound even more like too light a charge.

If it were me I would use 20gr. of your powder. Keep weighing until you are sure you are getting the amount you need consistently.

[00bullitt]

Sounds to me like your charge is too light(not enough gas) causing you to short stroke and get a bolt over feed malfunction.

But.....it may not be the ammo.....it could be your gas system. The Fiocchi is hot enough to cycle even with some loss in gas pressure. Sounds like you are at the bottom end of 4198 but should still cycle. Check your gas rings on the bolt. Check that your gas key is tight and properly staked. Check that your gas block/front sight tower is in the correct location covering the gas port. If these issues are good. Start increasing your charge weight by .3 or .4 until the bolt locks to the rear after the last round in the magazine is fired. The bolt not locking to the rear is an indication you are not getting a complete cycle.

Does not sound like a brass prep issue. Also....check your powder measure is still throwing the correct charge. Do you have a backup scale? Your scale may be off by a full grain or two. Especially if its a beam scale. Are you throwing 10 charges and dividing by 10 or throwing one charge multiple times to adjust your measure?

Edited March 2, 2009 by 00bullitt

[Lawman13]

My two cents...........

I had a very similar problem. I had not been trimming. My problems were occuring with cartridge OAL in the 1.750-1.760+ range with once fired civilian brass.

I then started trimming to get the cartridge OAL down just a shade below 1.750, usually in the 1.742-1.749 range.

It seemed to make all the difference in the world. Haven't had a single problem yet.

Hope this helps you out.

[brent j]

Sounds to me like your charge is too light(not enough gas) causing you to short stroke and get a bolt over feed malfunction.

But.....it may not be the ammo.....it could be your gas system. The Fiocchi is hot enough to cycle even with some loss in gas pressure. Sounds like you are at the bottom end of 4198 but should still cycle. Check your gas rings on the bolt. Check that your gas key is tight and properly staked. gr Check that your gas block/front sight tower is in the correct location covering the gas port. If these issues are good. Start increasing your charge weight by .3 or .4 until the bolt locks to the rear after the last round in the magazine is fired. The bolt not locking to the rear is an indication you are not getting a complete cycle.

Does not sound like a brass prep issue. Also....check your powder measure is still throwing the correct charge. Do you have a backup scale? Your scale may be off by a full grain or two. Especially if its a beam scale. Are you throwing 10 charges and dividing by 10 or throwing one charge multiple times to adjust your measure?

Thanks for all of the info. I have a digital scale and I check the charge throw every 10 rounds or so. I only weigh single charges. Question about the charge. 21 gr is the suggested max so how close would I want to get to that or is it o.k. to exceed that slightly? Will .3 or .4 make that much of a difference with the bolt?

[brent j]

My two cents...........

I had a very similar problem. I had not been trimming. My problems were occuring with cartridge OAL in the 1.750-1.760+ range with once fired civilian brass.

I then started trimming to get the cartridge OAL down just a shade below 1.750, usually in the 1.742-1.749 range.

It seemed to make all the difference in the world. Haven't had a single problem yet.

Hope this helps you out.

Thanks for the advice

So are you trimming brass that is under the max oal but still over the trim to length suggestions in the books? Or are you just trimming brass that exceeds 1.760?

[00bullitt]

I would increase your charge to 20.5 grains. Try throwing 10 charges and weight 10 at a time and divide by 10 to get the average. When you are getting 205 grains in 10 throws that is 20.5 divided by 10.Thats also a way to measure in 100th's of a grain if needed.

You should not start to see bad pressure signs with 4198 until 23 grains.

I'm still unsure of how your malfunction could be related to untrimmed brass. Your issue is short stroking giving you a bolt over malfunction. That is caused by not enough gas to cycle the bolt carrier all the way to the rear to strip the next round. If you were having failure to extract or failure to go into battery then I may assume headspace issues. But thats not the case.

I think your problems will go away with an increased charge to get more gas pressure.

[kgunz11]

I would increase your charge to 20.5 grains. Try throwing 10 charges and weight 10 at a time and divide by 10 to get the average. When you are getting 205 grains in 10 throws that is 20.5 divided by 10.Thats also a way to measure in 100th's of a grain if needed.

That's only going to give you an average of 10 thrown charges, does not mean you are consistently throwing charges that are 20.5gr. You could throw 5 that are 21gr and 5 that are 20gr and come to the same conclusion. I don't know how that is measuring in .01 of a grain though.

You should not start to see bad pressure signs with 4198 until 23 grains.

I'm still unsure of how your malfunction could be related to untrimmed brass. Your issue is short stroking giving you a bolt over malfunction. That is caused by not enough gas to cycle the bolt carrier all the way to the rear to strip the next round. If you were having failure to extract or failure to go into battery then I may assume headspace issues. But thats not the case.

I think your problems will go away with an increased charge to get more gas pressure.

Is your bolt carrier clearing the top loaded round in the magazine? Meaning does the carrier go far enough to the rear that it picks up the next piece of brass by the head of the case? You said it was slamming into the shoulder of the case so we could gather that the bolt is not going all the way to the rear and pushing the next round by the head. This would lead me to think you are in fact not getting enough gas pressure to move the carrier all the way to the rear, but I'm not convinced it is because you do not have enough powder in the case. I would check the bolt carrier, gas key, gas tube, and gas block hole. You can increase chamber pressure and gas flow by adding more powder, but you should ensure everything else is in order first.

[00bullitt]

It is a method of averaging that gets you much closer to single charge measuring when using a progressive press. Its not ever going to be exact charge for charge but its going to be way more accurate than weighing and adjusting the measure from single throws.

And if its repeatable,its going to be much closer in charge by charge throws than the gross differences you stated.

But yes......you are correct.....it could be other underlying issues which I believe to be more of the case than charge weight. I covered those in a few replies above.

[kgunz11]

Oh ok. I thought you figured out some other way to get .01 accurate and I was interested in learning that approach, even though I think .1 accuracy is plenty enough.

[brent j]

I would increase your charge to 20.5 grains. Try throwing 10 charges and weight 10 at a time and divide by 10 to get the average. When you are getting 205 grains in 10 throws that is 20.5 divided by 10.Thats also a way to measure in 100th's of a grain if needed.

That's only going to give you an average of 10 thrown charges, does not mean you are consistently throwing charges that are 20.5gr. You could throw 5 that are 21gr and 5 that are 20gr and come to the same conclusion. I don't know how that is measuring in .01 of a grain though.

You should not start to see bad pressure signs with 4198 until 23 grains.

I'm still unsure of how your malfunction could be related to untrimmed brass. Your issue is short stroking giving you a bolt over malfunction. That is caused by not enough gas to cycle the bolt carrier all the way to the rear to strip the next round. If you were having failure to extract or failure to go into battery then I may assume headspace issues. But thats not the case.

I think your problems will go away with an increased charge to get more gas pressure.

Is your bolt carrier clearing the top loaded round in the magazine? Meaning does the carrier go far enough to the rear that it picks up the next piece of brass by the head of the case? You said it was slamming into the shoulder of the case so we could gather that the bolt is not going all the way to the rear and pushing the next round by the head. This would lead me to think you are in fact not getting enough gas pressure to move the carrier all the way to the rear, but I'm not convinced it is because you do not have enough powder in the case. I would check the bolt carrier, gas key, gas tube, and gas block hole. You can increase chamber pressure and gas flow by adding more powder, but you should ensure everything else is in order first.

Thanks for the response

I don't think it is going back to the head. The mechanicals are fine with the gun. It is basically brand new with only 1,000 rounds throogh it. The last batch of ammo was fine just started with this one. So I am going to try throwing a bigger charge and see if that works.

[kgunz11]

Is your charge the same as the last batch? It's odd that it worked then and is not now. Check the gas key, and make sure the gas is getting to it like it should. Check the gas tube and the gas port.

[VegasOPM]

19.5 gr of H4198 with a 55gr is a little light. I use an adjustable gas block and I have to adjust it to cycle anything under 19.8gr. I run 20.7gr of H4198 and it runs my 16" like a champ. 21.0 is the limit if I remember correctly.

[brent j]

I changed powders to RL-15 and problem solved. I guess H-4198 does not agree with my Bushmaster AR-15. Anyone else have issues with this powder in their AR-15? I loaded it to the max of 21 grn in the Hodgdon manual. This sucks because I have 3 cans of this stuff and it appears I can't use it now.