9mm major pressure levels

[mark dye]

Does anyone have any ACTUAL pressure data on their 9mm major loads? I am trying to keep a friend from doing a project that I personally don't think is advisable. I didn't have any actual pressure data to back up my argument.

Mark Dye

[Shay1911]

Does anyone have any ACTUAL pressure data on their 9mm major loads? I am trying to keep a friend from doing a project that I personally don't think is advisable. I didn't have any actual pressure data to back up my argument.

Mark Dye

This calc will estimate it for you: http://kwk.us/powley.html

[Alwaystryin]

How much water does a 9mm case hold?

Mark Dye

This calc will estimate it for you: http://kwk.us/powley.html

Edited February 26, 2009 by Alwaystryin

[HSMITH]

No actual pressure testing data that I know of, but I will bet REAL money that my 9mm major is running lower pressure than a lot of the Supers and 40 cal limited guns out there shooting major. All we have are casehead expansion and primer flow to gauge pressures, both are approximate but both do indicate approximate pressure levels. My 9mm major loads are safe and I have made safe loads with 7 different powders. I believe mine to be within SAAMI spec for 9mm. You can even BUY commercial 9mm ammo from Winchester that makes major in a G17 for example also.

If your buddy is wanting to run 9mm Major in a decent quality gun I don't see a problem with it.

Maybe Atlanta Arms did pressure testing with their 9 major load? They are the only one I can think of that would have reason to do so....

[Patrick Sweeney]

9mm Major within SAAMI specs? Maybe the +P specs, with some loads, in some guns. But I'd bet a stack of Benjamins that most home-brewed 9mm Major is a good step past +P.

Case expansion and primer flow indicators on handgun cartridges are pretty much useless. By the time you see anything you're way up into the nuclear zone.

In years of chronoing 9mm ammo, I've observed one batch of one brand of 9mm ammo that made major. All the rest? Not even close.

[larry cazes]

9mm Major within SAAMI specs? Maybe the +P specs, with some loads, in some guns. But I'd bet a stack of Benjamins that most home-brewed 9mm Major is a good step past +P.

Case expansion and primer flow indicators on handgun cartridges are pretty much useless. By the time you see anything you're way up into the nuclear zone.

In years of chronoing 9mm ammo, I've observed one batch of one brand of 9mm ammo that made major. All the rest? Not even close.

Gotta agree. I also dont believe that most 38super loads posted here are within SAAMI specs either. This is one of the reasons I use Supercomp brass. The case head has been beefed up to give some more margin. I have seen lots of truly scary 38super brass picked up off the range after RO'ing our sectional for years.

[JeffWard]

What's the real difference between a "9mm Major" load... and what non-competitive shooters would call a "9mm +P" Defensive load?

Should 9mm Major only be shot in typical Open guns, like STIs and SVIs (etc), or will a standard Glock or M&P handle them safely? There are 9mm Open Glocks... Are they safe?

My Winchester Ranger T +P 127gr carry ammo runs around 1250 FPS at the muzzle. I've seen 9mm Major loads here running much hotter. More w/ 115gr bullets, admittedly.

JeffWard

[open17]

Atlanta Arms sells a 9 major load. They call it 355 super, but it's a 9x19 Major load.

Uses 124 gr Zero HP?? Runs 1400+ out of my Glocks, and is loaded short enough

to run in Glock mags. Shoots NICE.

I'm assuming that they did some pressure testing, you might check and see if they

will share the data.

[smokshwn]

I would be interested in finding out some objective pressure criteria. If you are able to get some it would be great to share it.

On that note I find it odd that every so often there is a thread started on the evils of 9 major. I will agree that we are pushing the envelope a little with this caliber at major PF. I shoot a fair amount of larger matches and over the last three years I have been to three different matches where a gun blew up. None of these incidents involved a 9 major gun. Two were .40's and one was a .38 Super.

I point this out simply to show that in this sport we are often pushing the limits with everything....equipment, guns, loads, time, etc. It pays to be prudent and cautious when making decisions....but as is often the case what seems excessively risky to one is often within the comfort zone of another.

[XRe]

I would be interested in finding out some objective pressure criteria. If you are able to get some it would be great to share it.

I don't know of any for Major 9. I do know of some that was done on typical major PF Super loads. Most everything there is a pretty good amount above SAAMI spec, too. There are a couple of loads that either are within, or are very close to SAAMI spec, though.

It would definitely be interesting to see what typical chamber pressures would be for the typical Major 9 loads...

On that note I find it odd that every so often there is a thread started on the evils of 9 major. I will agree that we are pushing the envelope a little with this caliber at major PF. I shoot a fair amount of larger matches and over the last three years I have been to three different matches where a gun blew up. None of these incidents involved a 9 major gun. Two were .40's and one was a .38 Super.

How did someone blow up a Super?? Was it just a case failure, or are we talking detonation? The .40s don't really surprise me...

The thing is - most major PF 9x19 or Super loads involve a case that is relatively full and uses a relatively slow powder (as compared to the typical major .40 load). So, even fairly significant changes in the parameters of the load (changes in powder charge, or changes in the OAL due to setback) don't have quite the same catastrophic effect as those types of changes in a .40 load using a relatively heavy bullet and relatively fast powder. So, while race gun loads may be +p+(+++), they don't change as radically as the Limited gun loads can.

We ran .38 Super and 9x21 (at 9x19) length at much higher pressures for a long time at old Major (generally with the same powders in use in Major 9 today) - with supported chambers and good brass, we didn't blow any guns up like that, either. I saw some really scary stuff, too, when guys started running Tribrid guns with 115s at old Major (like, primers dropping out of new cases upon firing... probably running 65K psi, we'd figured...)

Within reason, what higher chamber pressures in a racegun tends to do is accelerate wear in the gun. You'll find that the upper lugs start moving, the breechface starts getting beaten, etc - it eventually happens in any gun, but occurs more quickly with higher pressure loads (sometimes much more quickly) - and even more quickly if the barrel is not perfectly fit. There are a lot of factors that play into it, obviously - different guns are going to show different behaviors with different loads depending upon their build, etc (that is, the exact chamber pressure depends on the gun as well as the load).

[Cardinal]

Ran a 9mm Major load through Quickload for fun.

125gr Hornady HAP, 8.6gr 3N38 (which was the amount of powder a shooter here in Norway used), OAL 30mm/1.181".

QL predicts a pressure of 42171psi. Max levels under SAAMI 9mm +P is 38500.

Same load using Speer 124gr TMJ, 43296psi and 172.6 PF

Using Sierra 125gr JHP, only 32362 but a PF of only 163.7. Using 9.0gr powder, the pressure and PF jump to 37138psi and 171.7

Just one thing to keep in mind, Ql based the resulting PF on a gun with a 5.5" barrel but it does not simulate ports so in reality they will probably be lower.

So using the correct components, you should be able to make Major at around +P levels..

[larry cazes]

Can you repeat this for some of the other powders being used?

[Cardinal]

If you have a specific load, I'd be happy to run it.

QL has just about every powder, but the "problem" is bullets. Zero's and Montana Gold are not listed.

Sierra, remington, Win., Rainier, Speer, Nosler, lapua etc are all listed and would be more accurate.

[XRe]

The difference in the bullets likely comes from different seating depth with OAL is the same. You could roughly guess which bullets in QL would be usable, with bullet OAL data. For instance, a Zero 125 JHP is .569 long, while a 125gr HAP is .575 (well, the two on my desk, anyway) Some difference in ogive and such, obviously, too, but....

If you run the actual load in play through QL, it won't be far off from reality for peak chamber pressure - the velocity it predicts likely will, but peak pressure is decided long before the bullet approaches a port in the barrel...

[G-ManBart]

I know of a barrel manufacturer that recently had some pressure testing done on 9mm Major loads. I haven't seen the raw data, but they did tell me that with a couple of the combinations it took only a couple of thousandths of setback to cause huge increases in pressure (like 5K out of knowhere). When I get the data I'll try to add some detail.

Funny, but the +P Winchester T load above is only 158pf.....not even close to what people are running. R,

[HSMITH]

The throat has a HUGE impact on pressures. I took a 9 Major barrel that had the chamber support removed by a previous person and made it useable at major. Before I worked on it the brass was BLISTERING out, after work it looked and measured similar to many factory loads in a Glock. Same loads as before but an incredible difference in pressure.

[smokshwn]

How did someone blow up a Super?? Was it just a case failure, or are we talking detonation? The .40s don't really surprise me...

Don't have many details on the Super....just that someone DNF the match due to a "blowup".... The 40's were both 200gr loads with VV 310....so no real surprise there.

Funny, but the +P Winchester T load above is only 158pf.....not even close to what people are running. R,

It chronoed 168pf out of my Bedell Shorty.....IIRC Rob Leatham was shooting this load in open for a while, although it was from a 5 inch gun.

[JeffWard]

Back to my original question...

I understand that a competition 9-Major load is routinely hotter than a factory +P.

Most modern 9mm's (Glocks, M&Ps, XDs) are +P rated... and there are a lot of "Open-Glocks" out there. Assuming you are shooting an M&P or an XD with a fully supported chamber, and with the full understanding that you're likely reducing the life-span of the gun... Are the 1911-derivative open guns that much stronger/safer?

To get to the absolute root of my question, understanding that this is a competition forum, and not a self-defense forum... If ammo restrictions and availability continue in the direction they MAY be going... and the access to +P defensive ammo goes the same direction as access to WWB at Walmart... If required, what hand-load would you carry in your carry gun? How would YOU replicate a premium defensive round, like a gold-dot, or a Ranger-T, or a Cor-Bon? (Clarification: For legal reasons, I do and will carry factory defensive ammo. I'm speaking in the hypothetical here.)

Or... that being the case, would you just carry and shoot a subsonic 147gr JHP?

JW

[G-ManBart]

Back to my original question...

I understand that a competition 9-Major load is routinely hotter than a factory +P.

Most modern 9mm's (Glocks, M&Ps, XDs) are +P rated... and there are a lot of "Open-Glocks" out there. Assuming you are shooting an M&P or an XD with a fully supported chamber, and with the full understanding that you're likely reducing the life-span of the gun... Are the 1911-derivative open guns that much stronger/safer?

To get to the absolute root of my question, understanding that this is a competition forum, and not a self-defense forum... If ammo restrictions and availability continue in the direction they MAY be going... and the access to +P defensive ammo goes the same direction as access to WWB at Walmart... If required, what hand-load would you carry in your carry gun? How would YOU replicate a premium defensive round, like a gold-dot, or a Ranger-T, or a Cor-Bon? (Clarification: For legal reasons, I do and will carry factory defensive ammo. I'm speaking in the hypothetical here.)

Or... that being the case, would you just carry and shoot a subsonic 147gr JHP?

JW

Since that's pretty much a totally different question from that of the threadstarter, I'd see if you could get it split off into it's own thread.

I doubt that a premium 1911/2011 barrel is significantly stronger than the stock barrels in something like a Glock, M&P etc. The slides/recoil systems on the service autos may not hold up to the pounding, but as far as being strong enough, it really boils down to the barrel and, more specifically, the chamber.

Edit to add: I'd just carry a 147gr JHP....that's what we issue to our folks carrying 9s and in the real world they've done as well as the high speed 115s have. That's actually what I keep loaded in my wife's Kahr 9mm....very accurate, not too snappy and more than enough to do the job.

Edited March 6, 2009 by G-ManBart

[XRe]

(Clarification: For legal reasons, I do and will carry factory defensive ammo. I'm speaking in the hypothetical here.)

I believe this has come up in a thread here, already, but... I don't believe there's ever been a case of someone being successfully prosecuted or sued for using handloads? Anyway... I carry factory ammo, too, FWIW...

Or... that being the case, would you just carry and shoot a subsonic 147gr JHP?

Depends on the gun... Interestingly, though, with a little 3N38, you can apparently drive a 147 XTP at 1200+ fps, and still be in SAAMI spec... That's 175+ PF! (out of a 4" barrel). In my XD9 sub-compact, I need a hot load to retain any real kind of energy - a 124gr +P Gold Dot, or the Ranger-T 127gr load seem to be the only two that retain any real energy in that short of a barrel...

[kimel]

More from QuickLoad:

Pretty popular load I see used a lot (although an MG 124, not a Speer 124 but I don't have the MG bullet in QL)

7.5gr Silhouette under a 124gr TMJ (Speer) at 1.80 OAL, 5" barrel

59444 PSI, 187.6 PF

FWIW...this is using all stock data with QL (an older version...haven't gotten around to upgrading). I found in .40 that QL overestimated PF, and everything else until I tweaked out the cartridge specs with actual volume etc. QL claims the above load is 3% compressed yet everyone loading Silhouette swears it isn't a compressed load.

YMMV

[HSMITH]

I would be curious what QL thinks my load runs for pressure and velocity. I am running 8.6 3n-37 with a Zero 115 JHP at 1.18". It runs 1530-1537 in my 5.4" barrel. At 1.195" it took a heavy 8.8 to get the same speed

Not saying it is THE load or even a safe load but in my gun a Federal SPP looks perfect, better than a lot of factory loads do even with other primers in those loads.

[Guy Neill]

I've never tested Major 9 loads in a pressure gun, but there are some indications of the sorts of pressures developed.

Quite a number of years ago I did test some 38 Super loads using 115gr bullets making the old Major power factor (175) that gave 45,000 CUP. SAAMI lists 48,000 CUP as a proof level load.

Even more years ago, as reprinted in a couple of the more recent Speer Manuals, Speer developed a 28,000 CUP load for the 9mm Luger, then seated the bullet (as I recall without looking it up) 0.033" deeper, and the pressure increased to 62,000 CUP.

You might also note the 356 TSW cartridge. I don;t recall the factory velocity, but SAAMI allows 50,000 psi for it. While it's not a 9mm Luger case, it is a 9x21½ loaded, I think, to the same OAL as the 9mm Luger. I was always disappointed that I was unable to convince Speer to include 356 TSW data in the Manual.

All this suggests a Major 9 load is fairly likely in the 40,000+ psi range, and, maybe into the 50,000+ psi range. Depends on the bullet and seating depth as well as many other variables.

The Speer TMJ bullets will push through the bore easier than a conventionally jacketed bullet, so will typically show less pressure for a give load than something like a MG.

Throating definitely affects the pressures. This goes all the way back to the Weatherby cartridges developing higher velocities within accepted normal pressures by increasing the freebore.

At one time I think Hodgdon was receptive to testing loads, but I don't know what the cost was for the testing service, and i don;t know that they still do. HP White labs will, I think, but it's likely to be expensive. The companies that have pressure guns have no incentive to test beyond SAAMI limits.

A pressure gun barrel costs on the order of $800 or more, assuming you already have the receiver. On top of that, if you're going with a psi system, you've got another $1000 or so for the transducer, also assuming you have the support equipment for it. That's per cartridge to be tested (barrel and transducer).

I'd be interested in seeing actual test data on a variety of loads and cartridges, but i don't expect it will happen anytime soon.

I've heard good things about Quickload, but, like most models, it greatly depends on how good the data is that is put into it. As can be seen from the Speer tests, fairly small changes can have rather large effects.

Guy

[Cardinal]

I would be curious what QL thinks my load runs for pressure and velocity. I am running 8.6 3n-37 with a Zero 115 JHP at 1.18". It runs 1530-1537 in my 5.4" barrel. At 1.195" it took a heavy 8.8 to get the same speed

Not saying it is THE load or even a safe load but in my gun a Federal SPP looks perfect, better than a lot of factory loads do even with other primers in those loads.

Your load using using Sierra 115gr JHP, which is 0.514" long (no Zeros in QL) and default case capacity:

Pressure: 45847psi and 1537fps

Using modified case capacity of 14gr of H2O (vs default of 13.3), which is about what got into some Fiocchi/Geco cases I had,

the pressure drop to 40911psi and 1505fps

Using Speer 115gr GoldDot (0.544" long)

Case capacity of 13.3: 52120psi and 1574fps

14.0: 45609psi and 1538fps

Hornady 115gr XTP was only a few hundred PSI more than with the Speer GD.

Nosler 115gr JHP (0.505"):

13.3gr H2O: 44114psi and 1526fps

14.0gr H2O: 39545psi and 1495fps

[HSMITH]

Thanks Eric!